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October 07, 2011
Defining Fair Chase Behind a High Fence - 39
I recently published a piece criticizing deer farmers for creating "freak show" bucks through genetic manipulation. Apart from a few deer breeders who were critical of the post, it seemed like most readers shared my concern. It was my most widely read post so far on OutdoorLife.com and it really got some folks fired up. Interestingly, the post spurred a conversation on high fence hunting (apart from genetic manipulation) which fanned the flames even higher. It seems like hunters have very strong opinions on high fences and are not shy about sharing them. Their opinions range from believing that high fences are the future of the sport to believing that high fences are destroying the sport. But before we get any further, a few facts: - Both native and non-native game species are hunted behind high fences - High fence hunts are widely practiced in this country - High fence hunts are growing in popularity, are a very big business, and have many supporters - Not all hunting behind high fences is fee hunting on shooting preserves or game farms. Much of it is on private ranches with thousands of acres under fence Defining Fair Chase Much of the opposition to high fence hunting seems to center around the concept of "fair chase." Fair chase is defined by most as a situation where the hunted is not put in a disadvantaged position and has a real chance to escape. In the wild, this means you don't shoot a moose when he is swimming across a lake, you don't walk up to a caribou mired in the mud and shoot him and if you find two helpless locked-up bucks you do every thing you can to get them apart and let them escape unharmed. Some extend the definition "fair chase" to not hunting over bait, food plots, watering holes or any other artificial means of concentrating wild animals. Others believe hunting islands, blind canyons or using natural terrain blockades isn't fair chase either. Short of obeying state and federal fair chase game laws, the concept can get pretty gray pretty fast. Basically it is up to the individual hunter or club or organization to draw the fair chase line in the sand. When it comes to fair chase and high fences, there are three different scenarios. Here's my take on each... Fair Chase Behind the Fence A gray area in the hunting community is hunting behind a high fence that encloses hundreds if not thousands of acres. The whitetails living on this ground have never seen a baby bottle or Snickers bar and are every bit as wild and wary as deer on open land. The deer live under natural wild conditions and are plenty challenging to hunt. Aside from the fence, they are not artificially constrained or for that matter, even concentrated in a given area. In my book, this is black and white, this is fair chase hunting. The fences are up to keep undesirable animals (and trespassers) out and desirable animals in. I have on occasion hunted these places and have noticed no difference in hunting these properties from unfenced ground. In fact, some of them can be considerably tougher to hunt than some free range properties I've been on. On hunts like this there's no guarantee that you're going to kill a buck, or even get a chance to kill a buck. As far as I'm concerned, the only real difference is you can't register your high fence kill in some of the record books. But cut the acreage to say 50 or 75 acres, stock it regularly with new recruits from a game farm and feed your deer in troughs, and it's a different story for me. The hunt is now a "shoot" and I want no part of it (more on this later). I shoot doves, I hunt whitetails. But that's just me. Almost Fair Chase Behind the Fence Then there are shooting preserves with stocked game, guides who put you on animals and highly-managed property. These places basically guarantee a kill. Many argue that these pay-to-hunt shooting preserves and game farm hunts are not only legal but plenty fair as far as the "fair chase" doctrine goes. They point out that it is not shooting fish in a barrel and their hunting experience is every bit as rewarding as a hunt taken in the wild. In fact, they argue since most shooting preserves are well stocked with wild game, the experience for many is more rewarding than a non-fenced hunt where you often come home empty handed. They cite high fence operations, which excel at providing a "hunting experience" that feels like a real hunt with plenty of drama and "almost got him" opportunities. The high fences are seldom if ever noticed, the guides are authentic and the animals are good at making themselves scarce. Many of the animals were born behind the high fence or at least have lived there long enough to learn the ropes. The "stockers" came out of natural whitetail stock not inbreeding freak show antler genetics. The hunt often lasts for a couple of days or more but in almost every case, by the end of the hunt the hunter is put on a shooter, shots are fired and an animal gets killed. Backs get slapped, chests get pounded and somebody gets paid. Money must change hands in order for this kind of thing to work. Proponents of these hunts claim they are a great way to introduce newcomers to the sport, or that it's the only way they can hunt with their busy schedule. Or maybe it's the only hunting within 500 miles. For some, it's what hunting is all about. Some simply state: "It's legal and I'm having a good time, so mind your own damn business and quit putting ideas in the anti's heads!" OK, I get it, and I don't begrudge folks who enjoy this kind of thing. I've been there once or twice and it didn't do a thing for me. It might be a sign of the times, but count me out! Unfair Chase Behind the Fence The worst canned hunts (or more accurately shoots) are nothing short of obscene. You select your "trophy range" in inches and by what your checkbook can handle. The only rule being "the bigger the better." Your deer may have been delivered to your hunting location a few days earlier or may have been stocked a few weeks or months earlier. If he carries uncommonly massive antlers he is probably the product of genetic manipulation where the only thing that matters is rack size. He was sold as a "shooter" because he didn't make the grade as a breeder. He may be semi-tame or even semi-stupid with all that "only antlers matter" inbreeding in his line. You may shoot him out of a golf cart or you may choose to break in those new boots, but one way or another you will get your buck. You may hunt over bait or wait for the boys to walk him through a narrow shooting slot but get him you will. You will head for the bar, pay the bill ($10,000 to $15,000 for a really good whitetail), drive through the gate and will be home for dinner. The problem is, you've just been ripped off. This buck is no trophy. He is not the same as a naturally bred whitetail. His spectacular antlers are the product of genetic manipulation and artificial insemination. He's been raised on supplements and steroids and all sorts of high performance foodstuffs. Most agree these hunts have little semblance to the real thing. Not only are they not "fair chase" but an abomination as well. Becoming a hunter isn't all that complicated. You can do better than this. 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Comments (39)
I understand that just because their is a high fence it is not always a guarantee kill however it is easier to keep down pressure of predators as well as keeping the game on the land inside the fence and the deer are then basically grown with special diets to become monster bucks for most hunters this will always be an issue B/C has recognized the difference just saying
On occasion I'll take the time to respond to indivduals whose ideas seem to be way off the mark.Although Crazy HORSE is entitled to his opinion,he's not entitled to make up his own facts.The first being that if you work and have money then there is no need to hunt,so our animal populations get out of balance resulting in malnourished herds that may have large die offs that takes years to reclaim.Although he speaks as if the AMERICAN NATIVE INDIAN doesn't take pleasure in his kills,history shows earlier paintings in caves depicts just the opposite.History also shows the NATIVE INDIAN used wildfires to funnel animals into killing zones,along with the use of snares that humanely strangled thier quarry to death.The long bow is a poor weapon no matter if it's hand made or not,if the NATIVE AMERICAN had the choice he quickly traded up to a rifle that became available to them.RED,BLACK OR WHITE,THE urge to hunt is natural in mankind and as CRAZY HORSE watches on his NATIVE AMERICAN T.V SET THE world changes,as he should well know 300 hundred years after the fact.
On ocassion i run across debates on sites such as this.being a native american it makes me furious to see arguments back and forth between people who have destroyed an entire country,what was high youve laid flat what was flat you have raised,what was dry you have made wet,what was wet you have made dry.You have covered the ground with concrete and blacktop and made the water not fit to drink or for life to live in,you have taken more than you need and waste enough to feed nations.Here you argue the ethics of hunting an animal confined in a fence,to you death means nothing, you comitted genicide against human beings here and now argue about taking the spirit of an animal that is fed better than most people?I still hunt the way i was taught as a child,with a long bow.Years i have work and money i do not hunt.When my family needs food and i have no money i hunt.You?When you take more than you need do you give it to those who do not?
You will spend 500.00 to hang your kill on the wall,if you can do that then you do not need.There are few if any of you who can be called hunters, killers and takers at the best.Of those animals confined and not free ,death is a gift to them they can return at a later time to be free.You have turned the hunt into tv shows and things to buy in a store,the bow i use was built by hand in tradition of my people,my arrows are built by hand,they were fletched by hand and trued by hand and never has been used to take any animal that was not needed,you need to kill for a different reason than we, you call it sport.Killing for sport to us is an act of sin.What honor is there in using a high power rifle to kill an animal from 100-500 yards away?I watch your tv and see those who kill laugh and jump and dance after they have killed and bring disgrace to the animal spirit they have taken,when they should be quiet and kneel and be thankful it has given itself to them.To you death is such a joy,An ocassion to celebrate,to take the life of any living thing that is not needed is un-ethical.How do you then argue ethics?I have not read one response here by anyone who even mentioned they needed what they took to eat?They may have WANTED what they took, but did not need.So in reality your ethics arguments are mute,you have none.
without naming the place here in pa i can tell you there are fair chase high fence hunts i am 59 been hunting since i was 10 and went on my first managed hunt last fall my cousin talked me into it, i was extremly skeptical i was told by the outfitter if i felt uncomfortable and did not want to harvest an animal there would be no charge,after going through a gate i never seen a fence,in reality pa is getting so crowded with hunters except in the northwest the idea of fair chase as it used to be does not exist IF you can get permission to hunt at all!! Having grown up on a farm i have a question? do any of you eat beef,chicken,pork??I can tell you there are no ethics in causing death,wether it is an animal in a fence or running wild, dead is dead,the only thing that can be done is to do it as humane as possible.The animals i encountered were far from tame!If anything more alert than so called wild animals ive hunted.Whats the difference between wacking a deer from a blind from 300 yds away or stalking an animal thats in a high fence? If you want to be completley ethical then hunt with your bare hands or a spear...i do agree that the size of the property should be considered this one exceeds 1000 acres,i was impressed and im going back i still hunt like i used to but have added this to my yearly hunts.If you go to the right place they will tell you up front they will not herd animals to you or spot them and contact you by radio or cell to tell you the location.Last year i went for buffalo it took 2 days to get a shot.This fall i went for deer here where i live with no fence it took one hour to harvest a buck,here they are more used to humans than the buffalo in the perserve.In closing you can justify ethics anyway you wish but causing the death of a living being is just that,the world now is just one high fence,an it gets worse everyday.
Whats the difference? I hunted 72 days last year on PUBLIC AND PRIVATE ground that other hunters share.I'M a headhunter and haven;t taken a trophy in 7 years here in kentucky.Some hunters can afford guide hunts no fence but the animals are pre baited, enough pictures of them to be a movie star ,with exotic names like {cactus buck or double drop chocholate buck}you get the picture.So some guy has the money but not the time for an authenic hunt.HE wants a great buck and gets it.IT doesn't matter to me,but if I ever win the lotto I might just try one and tell the damnest lie you ever heard. ENJOY YOUR HUNT ,DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE NEXT GUY.
when we going 6phunter?
The food based arguments aren't germaine to the discussion.
First, the odds are against paying to hunt at a fenced ranch becuase it's an economical way to put food on the table.
Secondly, I love a good steak as much as the next guy, but it's never occurred to me to mount the steer's head on the wall as a point of pride.
I would rather miss the entire hunting season than hunt a high fence farm. If others want to go out and shoot a caged in animal then go ahead, but don't compare it to hunting free range animals.
Captjim: good point! I didn't notice that before.
PS...If you look at the photo above you can see which side of the fence is the inside because of the trail made by the deer walking around the perimeter like the caged animals they are.
I personally would never shoot a zoo animal. If it's fenced in it's in a zoo no matter how you spin it. Too many hunters have turned hunting into a pissing contest via the scoring system and have lost all concept of what real hunting is. There are two elements to this concept. The first element is about outsmarting the animal starting from scratch. You start with figuring out the best area to hunt. Then you spend time in the woods scouting and looking for trails, rubs, food sources, funnels, etc. Then you form a plan to outsmart your prey which may or may not work. Only after all this do I get any satisfaction from killing a deer and I could care less about how big the rack is or even if it's a buck. This really is a case of "It's the journey not the destination". Just experiencing the great outdoors should be rewarding enough for the effort. The second element is about the memories and relationships that are forged along the way with buddies, sons and daughters, and god forbid wives. It's even more rewarding if you chose to use bow only. I get more satifaction out of arrowing a doe than pulling the trigger on buckzilla. If you don't have the time or desire for all this then you might as well just hire someone to shoot your deer for you. That way you won't have to be bothered with the mosquitos. If you don't want do that then there's always fotoshop.
so if I go to a strip bar,it's not fair to take one home?
I have read some of the comments on here about regulations
I know deer farms (state Inspector) the regulations are high im my state you have two state agency's over seeing the farms you have the feds. If cwd was ever found on a farm the state comes in and kills every animal on the farm weather they have it or not. example the state of MN had a out break of TB in wild deer and cows. the cows were killed and the state sent up helicopters with snipers and wiped out all the deer they could find in the area. CWD found in WI in wild deer the state open shoots killing hundreds of deer and never finds any more. and this happens all the time.
High fence before you close the fence off you must try and run all wild animals out of the area that is fenced not sure on all states but in mine it must be done.
Steroids as the story says I have inspected hundreds of farms and have not seen it (not saying it don't happen)
you always have a few bad apples.
Last of all if any of you eat beef then you should not throw stones at a glass house!!! Beef are in a fence they are shot up with drugs to make more milk make them grow bigger and every other thing you can think of then they are marched into a truck brought to a slaughter house shot point blank in the head and sold to all to you.
Now for high fencing you may not agree and that is why we live in the great USA so we can have opinions and voice them I know of a few farms out in the industry that raise money to give free hunts to wounded soldiers and to disabled kids and adults. show me a good hunting place were a person who served our country for your freedoms and can get his wheelchair to his deer stand and be able to get in it and have a chance to shoot a deer and to be able to get it back to his house. so all I ask is that when you judge a farm you should really thing about going and seeing one before you judge someday it may be your son daughter brother or sister or could even be your wife who was hurt by a road side bomb. At least to some of these great farms will give them a place to do what they love HUNT
Before I throw out a thought for discussion let me preface that thought with the fact that I do not agree with canned shoots, including high fence hunting. That said, I am in no position to judge any other human being about anything, let alone their hunting beliefs. Now, here's a thought for discussion: do you think had frontiersmen and Native Americans had the chance to have deer, elk, etc. in a fenced situation that they would have shot them for the sake of food? Part of me would think that could they have had things made that easy for them that they would have taken that opportunity in a heartbeat. When your life revolves around feeding your family or a village the nobility of hunting takes on a new definition, as much as I may not like that. I know that throws an orange into an apples discussion but just thought I'd throw that out there. What say all of you?
A comment on a couple of comments.
First, in regards to the native wildlife, I agree with the principles of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model. Native wildlife belong to all citizens. So I do have a problem with fencing them in and treating them as private hoofstock. That should be (and largely is) illegal.
However, non-native species and farm-raised stock do belong inside a fence, and if you want to hunt them that's the place to do it. It's the only place that makes sense, because you just can't go turning those things loose on the habitat. Look at the problems caused by feral hogs and illegally released Eurasian boar.
I also agree that there should be some standard regulations for high-fence ranches. These should include accountability for escaped stock, disease control policies and procedures, as well as some sort of minimum size restrictions for commercial high-fence operations. I think the owners should have some say in these regulations.
There's a lot of good that can come out of a constructive conversation about high fence hunting. Calling people names and deriding other hunters simply because they enjoy a different aspect of the sport than you is not constructive. Exploring and addressing the real problems and issues with high fence operations... CWD, escaped non-native species, inhumane conditions... that will get us somewhere.
Another assnine statement from someone with no clue on how a farm or ranch is even run...Lte me walk you through it.Every deer on a farm is tb/bruc test any deer that dies on any farm is cwd tested. There are states that have cwd outside the fence but not inside..explain that one...A whitetail deer behind a fence is the healthiest whitetail in the world. A grain fed,top alpalpa genticaly superior whitetail is the best eating whitetail you will ever find. Whats on their head is just a plus for the people that choose to take one.Again mabey not yourself but 90% of the people that are against high fence are not against the fence,they are against the pricetag!!! That in fact is no higher of a cost than it is to fork out the pricetag on a week hunt at a low fence area where you MIGHT get lucky and see a 130in deer. Thats if the 20 hunters that have been there before you didnt run them all out of the woods.
As long as there are no steroids/antibiotics being fed to the animals, I really don't care if there is a fence or not. Ranch hunting is basically a combination of two of my favorite activities--target shooting and buying meat for the bbq. Fenced or not, if the meat is all-natural, it will likely be leaner and healthier than anything store-bought. And that's really what it's about for me. I hunt/buy meat because I like to eat it. And every minute I spend hunting is a minute I don't spend cooking and eating, so the faster the better.
half these yahoos on TV wouldn't know what the heck to do outside of a fence. heck, hank parker and the rest of em' wouldn't have a career! i saw him walk right up to a mule deer at 20 yards, thing looked right at him and let him shoot it. no hank, it's not your "amazing" spot and stalk technique or the c'meere deer deoderant you were wearing, it was the fact that deer thought you were going to fill that feed trough that was out of the frame. they should come film out in the public lands where i hunt...watching them have to actually hunt would be better than what they show.
Hotdoe, now that I've read your earlier post. I find it to be even sillier that I justified my statement on cost to someone who appears to be involved either in the business of high fence hunting or deer farming itself.
I'll further say that I think the farms are a bigger problem than the high fences, and from all I've read are the biggest disease risk to wild populations that we could have created as a species. Have a nice day.
Hotdoe. Maybe there is something hypocritical in my statement. I think my view is that pigs are generally either livestock or invasive vermin. From a pheasant stanpdpoint, those shoots are one of the few ways to reliably get your dogs on birds for training in my part of the world. My points were 1) For large animals I can see how holdings of hundreds and hundreds of acres blur the line, or become fair chase. 2) I wouldn't do it for big game species regardles.
I can't tell if you mean the animal is free, or if hunting a high fence is free. Regardless, for me hunting big game animals that are somehow contained, particularly if they are otherwise native to the environment, leaves a bad taste.
I brought up the cost and my not having the means to illustrate the fact that my perspective might be influenced by envy. I don't really think that's the case, but excuse me for trying for full disclosure.
jcarlin so you say you would hunt pigs behind fence and you would hunt birds behind fence. Those two species were put and raised behind that fence.So you are another one of the hunters that are saying that if it was free you would have no problem with it.....surprize,surprize
I'm a little suprised at all of the minus one's handed out. It's a polarized issue, but come on. Personally, I generally agree with the author. You get over a few hundred acres and take bait out of the equation and it seems like fair game to me. I can't afford this kind of nonsense anyway, but I'd hunt pheasant on a game farm without second thoughts. Something like a pig hunt in a large high fence operation, sure. I do think, however, that it generally sullies the grand idea of going out into the animal's environmnent and meeting it on it's terms that we apply to our iconic big game species. Do it if you must, but don't cry that you can't get into the record books. If you happen to book such a thing, and you get led to an enclosure of less than 200 acres or the dinner bell is rung at shooting time, I think you're morally obliged to punch the guide or owner in the mouth before you demand your money back and leave. Here is where I'll draw the ire of the masses. It's not all about antlers gentlemen. Too many seem to have their eyes on that prize and are missing out on the experiences that are supposed to make that the culmination of our efforts, not the sole point of them.
itis kind of funny to think how hunting mags always have these monster bucks on the cover with headlines like "bag this buck this season!" yeah...for a price you could probably kill that exact deer. I think two issues ago field and stream had this freakshow of a buck on their cover and a little tagline stating it was photographed at an "undisclosed location"....cheers to the people who realize that it didn't mean somewhere in the wild, but somewhere on a fenced ranch!!!
I look at this way most so called big game hunters on tv couldn't kill a deer unless theres a food plot,a feeder or something else to bring them in.I don't consider that a fair chase so you see my disgust with high fense hunt's.Oh and the reason i say big game hunter's on tv could'nt kill the deer without what i said earlier is. In Indiana most of what they do is illegal and there is only one game farm in the state that i know of and it's a canned hunt.
As far as I am concerned, if the deer cant jump the fence or there are not open access gates it is not hunting. To all ya'll that think you need to get a monster behind a fence ya'll need to reconsider what you call yourselves, because you are certainly NOT hunters.
I am a deer hunter been hunting for over 25 yrs never hunted high fence always wanted to. but I have looked at a few places to high fence hunt and found that most are 1000 acres or more I know of one I looked at is fenced in 3 sq mi to me that's a pretty fair hunt were I live we have state land next to our 400 acre cattle farm the state land is 80 acres and they have during deer season on average 40 hunters on that property that's a hunter every 2 acres is that a fair chase hunt hmmmm that poor deer does not have a chance in hell to get away unless the hunters are blind, poor shots , or manage to get on our place and don't get in my cross hairs.
but what bugs me the most about stories like this is were do you think those big buck images come from in there magazine??? I have been hunting a long time and very rarely seen a nice big buck like they have in this magazine for the big ones are to smart to just walk up to the camera guy and say take my photo
There should be limits on what should be allowed in the running of a high fence "hunting" operation. Every attempt should be taken to make it as realistic as hunting in the wild. If the land isn't big enough, or you feed them regularly in the same spots then they become nothing more than cattle. Cattle are nothing more than food. So why worry about the antlers? Personally I like doing it all on my own. The challenge of scouting, figuring out where to hunt, and thanking God, not a employee make it a much more rewarding experience.
smokey; you cannot release farm raised animals. That is how CWD has gotten so wide spread. If they are farm raised then they have to stay pened up. If you want to shoot one thats your right. Fair chase? Some say use of a cross bow during bow season is wrong. Some states allow rifle while others only shot guns. Maybe fair chase is running butt naked through the woods with a Bowie knife between your teeth, but thats probably illegal too!
Does the phrase "Shootin' carp in a barrel" sound familiar? Pen (fence)raised deer are just that and shot that way. Not hunted. Even if they are raised in captivity and released into the wild they know NOTHING about survival except that the person over there (who happens to be wearing hunter orange and carrying a 30-06) is probably there to feed him.
Maybe "deer farms" have a place but, as far as I am concern, they have tarnished the "Boone&Crocket"/"Pope&Young" concept of hunting WILD animals.
"WOW That is an awesome BUCK you harvested! Is it wild or Genetic?"
What makes a whitetailbuck a trophy? Does a 2-year old antler bred deer farm buck whose biggest challenge in life(up to the day he was shot)was showing up first at the feed trough deserve the same place on your wall as a wild buck? If antler size is all you care about the answer might just be "yes".
If it's about what antlers represent in the wild then your answer may just be "maybe not". In the wild deer antlers are symbols of life itself. Of living through tough winters and breeding rights and fighting off coyotes and beating hunters at their own game until one day the hunter wins and the antlers become his. Is this the same trophy as the game farm buck? Really?
For thousands of years man has looked at antlers with awe and respect. Ever wonder why? Maybe as hunters, we understand and respect what a truly wild animal has to do to grow them. Certainly our ancestors did. Maybe antler "awe" is so ingrained in our psyche we have no choice but to collect and display them as true symbols of survival and life itself.
Maybe deer farm antlers are trophies of a different kind? Maybe they belong on a different wall, along with pictures of your favorite deer breeder and his geneticist.
Deer farms do have their place. But, not as a place to hunt. I say raise the deer, charge the State Game Department for each deer you release into the wild. These deer could be transplanted to different locations within the state for fair-chase hunts on public lands. License and Tag fees could be used to help 'pay' the deer farms for the deer being released. High fenced areas is not true hunting. It should go against the grain of every true sportsman.
Well you are getting a little better on the whole deer farming idea but your assnine statements are just that! The deer that are raised on farms are not fed any steroids as you call them.Deer that are fed anything besides a balanced diet of grains and alpalpha mabey givin probotics.This is no different than what is givin to sheep and goats to help keep the rumen healthy. A happy rumen = a happy and healthy animal.This is pretty good coming from a magazine that has had so many deer on their front cover and most have been taken on deer farms!!!!I guess as long as you guys can sell magazines you will use our deer but then you turn around and bash deer farmers.Why dont you write a story of how many of these so called pro hunters hunt behind high fences top make their tv shows! I know it happens as i have seen it live in person.You guy really should stick to taking pictures because when you write about this sh!t you have no idea about makes you and your magazine look like the assclowns!!
Without a high fence you really don't know what you will encounter. This is hunting.
With a high fence you know what's in there (unless you illegally opened the fence). This is not hunting; this is just killing, fed by the desire to have a bigger deer and racks than you could ever find in the wild. Antlers mean more than hunting in this case.
As a property owner, I respect the individual right to fence a property and set rules for use, etc. However, I believe the indigenous species within the fence, prior to the construction of the fence, are owned by the citizenry, generally regulated by the state. By preventing the egress of these animals from the property one also takes aspects beyond hunting away from the citizenry. The property owner has no more right of property in those animals than you or I.
it's not wrong, it's just not hunting. what next, set up your tree stand in a cow pasture and arrow a heffer?
I don't really care how people get their deer, as long as it is legal. I just can't stand the guys bragging about the huge buck that they shot behind a fence. That animal is no different then a cow or pig in the farm yard, except for antlers.
I think the key to the whole Fair Chase discussion comes back to the number of times you used "I" or "to me" in your commentary. The choice and the challenge are completely subjective, and only relevant to the individual who chooses to hunt one way versus another.
I've said this so many times and in so many places that it's become almost a mantra... but the fact is that there is NOTHING "Fair" in modern hunting. Whether you're a bowhunter, a rifleman, or a trapper, the whole idea of hunting is to find and exploit the weaknesses in your quarry's defenses. We hunt from ambush, from remote distances, and with weapons that exceed the natural abilities of any predator or prey.
Point is, no hunter has any right to define the experience of another... whether he's hunting with a spear in the wilderness, hunting from a tree over bait, or hunting in a fenced preserve.
Be safe. Be legal. Kill clean.
It saddens me to know that the size of antlers is what deer hunting has become. I lost a hunting spot last year because a jealous "rack hunter" did everything in his power to get everyone kicked off the land. he did many unethical and illegal things just to hunt a couple of bucks that were spotted there. I put meat on the table not antlers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Craig Dougherty quote "High fence hunts are growing in popularity, are a very big business, and have many supporters"
It's all about the racks and the money it takes to "hunt" for one....
Maybe the locals will be allowed to keep the doe population in check for a trespass fee after the paying clients have "killed" their trophies......
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Craig Dougherty quote "High fence hunts are growing in popularity, are a very big business, and have many supporters"
It's all about the racks and the money it takes to "hunt" for one....
Maybe the locals will be allowed to keep the doe population in check for a trespass fee after the paying clients have "killed" their trophies......
It saddens me to know that the size of antlers is what deer hunting has become. I lost a hunting spot last year because a jealous "rack hunter" did everything in his power to get everyone kicked off the land. he did many unethical and illegal things just to hunt a couple of bucks that were spotted there. I put meat on the table not antlers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
half these yahoos on TV wouldn't know what the heck to do outside of a fence. heck, hank parker and the rest of em' wouldn't have a career! i saw him walk right up to a mule deer at 20 yards, thing looked right at him and let him shoot it. no hank, it's not your "amazing" spot and stalk technique or the c'meere deer deoderant you were wearing, it was the fact that deer thought you were going to fill that feed trough that was out of the frame. they should come film out in the public lands where i hunt...watching them have to actually hunt would be better than what they show.
Without a high fence you really don't know what you will encounter. This is hunting.
With a high fence you know what's in there (unless you illegally opened the fence). This is not hunting; this is just killing, fed by the desire to have a bigger deer and racks than you could ever find in the wild. Antlers mean more than hunting in this case.
smokey; you cannot release farm raised animals. That is how CWD has gotten so wide spread. If they are farm raised then they have to stay pened up. If you want to shoot one thats your right. Fair chase? Some say use of a cross bow during bow season is wrong. Some states allow rifle while others only shot guns. Maybe fair chase is running butt naked through the woods with a Bowie knife between your teeth, but thats probably illegal too!
itis kind of funny to think how hunting mags always have these monster bucks on the cover with headlines like "bag this buck this season!" yeah...for a price you could probably kill that exact deer. I think two issues ago field and stream had this freakshow of a buck on their cover and a little tagline stating it was photographed at an "undisclosed location"....cheers to the people who realize that it didn't mean somewhere in the wild, but somewhere on a fenced ranch!!!
so if I go to a strip bar,it's not fair to take one home?
I think the key to the whole Fair Chase discussion comes back to the number of times you used "I" or "to me" in your commentary. The choice and the challenge are completely subjective, and only relevant to the individual who chooses to hunt one way versus another.
I've said this so many times and in so many places that it's become almost a mantra... but the fact is that there is NOTHING "Fair" in modern hunting. Whether you're a bowhunter, a rifleman, or a trapper, the whole idea of hunting is to find and exploit the weaknesses in your quarry's defenses. We hunt from ambush, from remote distances, and with weapons that exceed the natural abilities of any predator or prey.
Point is, no hunter has any right to define the experience of another... whether he's hunting with a spear in the wilderness, hunting from a tree over bait, or hunting in a fenced preserve.
Be safe. Be legal. Kill clean.
I don't really care how people get their deer, as long as it is legal. I just can't stand the guys bragging about the huge buck that they shot behind a fence. That animal is no different then a cow or pig in the farm yard, except for antlers.
As a property owner, I respect the individual right to fence a property and set rules for use, etc. However, I believe the indigenous species within the fence, prior to the construction of the fence, are owned by the citizenry, generally regulated by the state. By preventing the egress of these animals from the property one also takes aspects beyond hunting away from the citizenry. The property owner has no more right of property in those animals than you or I.
Deer farms do have their place. But, not as a place to hunt. I say raise the deer, charge the State Game Department for each deer you release into the wild. These deer could be transplanted to different locations within the state for fair-chase hunts on public lands. License and Tag fees could be used to help 'pay' the deer farms for the deer being released. High fenced areas is not true hunting. It should go against the grain of every true sportsman.
There should be limits on what should be allowed in the running of a high fence "hunting" operation. Every attempt should be taken to make it as realistic as hunting in the wild. If the land isn't big enough, or you feed them regularly in the same spots then they become nothing more than cattle. Cattle are nothing more than food. So why worry about the antlers? Personally I like doing it all on my own. The challenge of scouting, figuring out where to hunt, and thanking God, not a employee make it a much more rewarding experience.
Before I throw out a thought for discussion let me preface that thought with the fact that I do not agree with canned shoots, including high fence hunting. That said, I am in no position to judge any other human being about anything, let alone their hunting beliefs. Now, here's a thought for discussion: do you think had frontiersmen and Native Americans had the chance to have deer, elk, etc. in a fenced situation that they would have shot them for the sake of food? Part of me would think that could they have had things made that easy for them that they would have taken that opportunity in a heartbeat. When your life revolves around feeding your family or a village the nobility of hunting takes on a new definition, as much as I may not like that. I know that throws an orange into an apples discussion but just thought I'd throw that out there. What say all of you?
I personally would never shoot a zoo animal. If it's fenced in it's in a zoo no matter how you spin it. Too many hunters have turned hunting into a pissing contest via the scoring system and have lost all concept of what real hunting is. There are two elements to this concept. The first element is about outsmarting the animal starting from scratch. You start with figuring out the best area to hunt. Then you spend time in the woods scouting and looking for trails, rubs, food sources, funnels, etc. Then you form a plan to outsmart your prey which may or may not work. Only after all this do I get any satisfaction from killing a deer and I could care less about how big the rack is or even if it's a buck. This really is a case of "It's the journey not the destination". Just experiencing the great outdoors should be rewarding enough for the effort. The second element is about the memories and relationships that are forged along the way with buddies, sons and daughters, and god forbid wives. It's even more rewarding if you chose to use bow only. I get more satifaction out of arrowing a doe than pulling the trigger on buckzilla. If you don't have the time or desire for all this then you might as well just hire someone to shoot your deer for you. That way you won't have to be bothered with the mosquitos. If you don't want do that then there's always fotoshop.
it's not wrong, it's just not hunting. what next, set up your tree stand in a cow pasture and arrow a heffer?
What makes a whitetailbuck a trophy? Does a 2-year old antler bred deer farm buck whose biggest challenge in life(up to the day he was shot)was showing up first at the feed trough deserve the same place on your wall as a wild buck? If antler size is all you care about the answer might just be "yes".
If it's about what antlers represent in the wild then your answer may just be "maybe not". In the wild deer antlers are symbols of life itself. Of living through tough winters and breeding rights and fighting off coyotes and beating hunters at their own game until one day the hunter wins and the antlers become his. Is this the same trophy as the game farm buck? Really?
For thousands of years man has looked at antlers with awe and respect. Ever wonder why? Maybe as hunters, we understand and respect what a truly wild animal has to do to grow them. Certainly our ancestors did. Maybe antler "awe" is so ingrained in our psyche we have no choice but to collect and display them as true symbols of survival and life itself.
Maybe deer farm antlers are trophies of a different kind? Maybe they belong on a different wall, along with pictures of your favorite deer breeder and his geneticist.
Does the phrase "Shootin' carp in a barrel" sound familiar? Pen (fence)raised deer are just that and shot that way. Not hunted. Even if they are raised in captivity and released into the wild they know NOTHING about survival except that the person over there (who happens to be wearing hunter orange and carrying a 30-06) is probably there to feed him.
Maybe "deer farms" have a place but, as far as I am concern, they have tarnished the "Boone&Crocket"/"Pope&Young" concept of hunting WILD animals.
"WOW That is an awesome BUCK you harvested! Is it wild or Genetic?"
As far as I am concerned, if the deer cant jump the fence or there are not open access gates it is not hunting. To all ya'll that think you need to get a monster behind a fence ya'll need to reconsider what you call yourselves, because you are certainly NOT hunters.
I look at this way most so called big game hunters on tv couldn't kill a deer unless theres a food plot,a feeder or something else to bring them in.I don't consider that a fair chase so you see my disgust with high fense hunt's.Oh and the reason i say big game hunter's on tv could'nt kill the deer without what i said earlier is. In Indiana most of what they do is illegal and there is only one game farm in the state that i know of and it's a canned hunt.
I'm a little suprised at all of the minus one's handed out. It's a polarized issue, but come on. Personally, I generally agree with the author. You get over a few hundred acres and take bait out of the equation and it seems like fair game to me. I can't afford this kind of nonsense anyway, but I'd hunt pheasant on a game farm without second thoughts. Something like a pig hunt in a large high fence operation, sure. I do think, however, that it generally sullies the grand idea of going out into the animal's environmnent and meeting it on it's terms that we apply to our iconic big game species. Do it if you must, but don't cry that you can't get into the record books. If you happen to book such a thing, and you get led to an enclosure of less than 200 acres or the dinner bell is rung at shooting time, I think you're morally obliged to punch the guide or owner in the mouth before you demand your money back and leave. Here is where I'll draw the ire of the masses. It's not all about antlers gentlemen. Too many seem to have their eyes on that prize and are missing out on the experiences that are supposed to make that the culmination of our efforts, not the sole point of them.
Hotdoe. Maybe there is something hypocritical in my statement. I think my view is that pigs are generally either livestock or invasive vermin. From a pheasant stanpdpoint, those shoots are one of the few ways to reliably get your dogs on birds for training in my part of the world. My points were 1) For large animals I can see how holdings of hundreds and hundreds of acres blur the line, or become fair chase. 2) I wouldn't do it for big game species regardles.
I can't tell if you mean the animal is free, or if hunting a high fence is free. Regardless, for me hunting big game animals that are somehow contained, particularly if they are otherwise native to the environment, leaves a bad taste.
I brought up the cost and my not having the means to illustrate the fact that my perspective might be influenced by envy. I don't really think that's the case, but excuse me for trying for full disclosure.
Hotdoe, now that I've read your earlier post. I find it to be even sillier that I justified my statement on cost to someone who appears to be involved either in the business of high fence hunting or deer farming itself.
I'll further say that I think the farms are a bigger problem than the high fences, and from all I've read are the biggest disease risk to wild populations that we could have created as a species. Have a nice day.
A comment on a couple of comments.
First, in regards to the native wildlife, I agree with the principles of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model. Native wildlife belong to all citizens. So I do have a problem with fencing them in and treating them as private hoofstock. That should be (and largely is) illegal.
However, non-native species and farm-raised stock do belong inside a fence, and if you want to hunt them that's the place to do it. It's the only place that makes sense, because you just can't go turning those things loose on the habitat. Look at the problems caused by feral hogs and illegally released Eurasian boar.
I also agree that there should be some standard regulations for high-fence ranches. These should include accountability for escaped stock, disease control policies and procedures, as well as some sort of minimum size restrictions for commercial high-fence operations. I think the owners should have some say in these regulations.
There's a lot of good that can come out of a constructive conversation about high fence hunting. Calling people names and deriding other hunters simply because they enjoy a different aspect of the sport than you is not constructive. Exploring and addressing the real problems and issues with high fence operations... CWD, escaped non-native species, inhumane conditions... that will get us somewhere.
I have read some of the comments on here about regulations
I know deer farms (state Inspector) the regulations are high im my state you have two state agency's over seeing the farms you have the feds. If cwd was ever found on a farm the state comes in and kills every animal on the farm weather they have it or not. example the state of MN had a out break of TB in wild deer and cows. the cows were killed and the state sent up helicopters with snipers and wiped out all the deer they could find in the area. CWD found in WI in wild deer the state open shoots killing hundreds of deer and never finds any more. and this happens all the time.
High fence before you close the fence off you must try and run all wild animals out of the area that is fenced not sure on all states but in mine it must be done.
Steroids as the story says I have inspected hundreds of farms and have not seen it (not saying it don't happen)
you always have a few bad apples.
Last of all if any of you eat beef then you should not throw stones at a glass house!!! Beef are in a fence they are shot up with drugs to make more milk make them grow bigger and every other thing you can think of then they are marched into a truck brought to a slaughter house shot point blank in the head and sold to all to you.
Now for high fencing you may not agree and that is why we live in the great USA so we can have opinions and voice them I know of a few farms out in the industry that raise money to give free hunts to wounded soldiers and to disabled kids and adults. show me a good hunting place were a person who served our country for your freedoms and can get his wheelchair to his deer stand and be able to get in it and have a chance to shoot a deer and to be able to get it back to his house. so all I ask is that when you judge a farm you should really thing about going and seeing one before you judge someday it may be your son daughter brother or sister or could even be your wife who was hurt by a road side bomb. At least to some of these great farms will give them a place to do what they love HUNT
PS...If you look at the photo above you can see which side of the fence is the inside because of the trail made by the deer walking around the perimeter like the caged animals they are.
I would rather miss the entire hunting season than hunt a high fence farm. If others want to go out and shoot a caged in animal then go ahead, but don't compare it to hunting free range animals.
when we going 6phunter?
Whats the difference? I hunted 72 days last year on PUBLIC AND PRIVATE ground that other hunters share.I'M a headhunter and haven;t taken a trophy in 7 years here in kentucky.Some hunters can afford guide hunts no fence but the animals are pre baited, enough pictures of them to be a movie star ,with exotic names like {cactus buck or double drop chocholate buck}you get the picture.So some guy has the money but not the time for an authenic hunt.HE wants a great buck and gets it.IT doesn't matter to me,but if I ever win the lotto I might just try one and tell the damnest lie you ever heard. ENJOY YOUR HUNT ,DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE NEXT GUY.
jcarlin so you say you would hunt pigs behind fence and you would hunt birds behind fence. Those two species were put and raised behind that fence.So you are another one of the hunters that are saying that if it was free you would have no problem with it.....surprize,surprize
As long as there are no steroids/antibiotics being fed to the animals, I really don't care if there is a fence or not. Ranch hunting is basically a combination of two of my favorite activities--target shooting and buying meat for the bbq. Fenced or not, if the meat is all-natural, it will likely be leaner and healthier than anything store-bought. And that's really what it's about for me. I hunt/buy meat because I like to eat it. And every minute I spend hunting is a minute I don't spend cooking and eating, so the faster the better.
Captjim: good point! I didn't notice that before.
without naming the place here in pa i can tell you there are fair chase high fence hunts i am 59 been hunting since i was 10 and went on my first managed hunt last fall my cousin talked me into it, i was extremly skeptical i was told by the outfitter if i felt uncomfortable and did not want to harvest an animal there would be no charge,after going through a gate i never seen a fence,in reality pa is getting so crowded with hunters except in the northwest the idea of fair chase as it used to be does not exist IF you can get permission to hunt at all!! Having grown up on a farm i have a question? do any of you eat beef,chicken,pork??I can tell you there are no ethics in causing death,wether it is an animal in a fence or running wild, dead is dead,the only thing that can be done is to do it as humane as possible.The animals i encountered were far from tame!If anything more alert than so called wild animals ive hunted.Whats the difference between wacking a deer from a blind from 300 yds away or stalking an animal thats in a high fence? If you want to be completley ethical then hunt with your bare hands or a spear...i do agree that the size of the property should be considered this one exceeds 1000 acres,i was impressed and im going back i still hunt like i used to but have added this to my yearly hunts.If you go to the right place they will tell you up front they will not herd animals to you or spot them and contact you by radio or cell to tell you the location.Last year i went for buffalo it took 2 days to get a shot.This fall i went for deer here where i live with no fence it took one hour to harvest a buck,here they are more used to humans than the buffalo in the perserve.In closing you can justify ethics anyway you wish but causing the death of a living being is just that,the world now is just one high fence,an it gets worse everyday.
On ocassion i run across debates on sites such as this.being a native american it makes me furious to see arguments back and forth between people who have destroyed an entire country,what was high youve laid flat what was flat you have raised,what was dry you have made wet,what was wet you have made dry.You have covered the ground with concrete and blacktop and made the water not fit to drink or for life to live in,you have taken more than you need and waste enough to feed nations.Here you argue the ethics of hunting an animal confined in a fence,to you death means nothing, you comitted genicide against human beings here and now argue about taking the spirit of an animal that is fed better than most people?I still hunt the way i was taught as a child,with a long bow.Years i have work and money i do not hunt.When my family needs food and i have no money i hunt.You?When you take more than you need do you give it to those who do not?
You will spend 500.00 to hang your kill on the wall,if you can do that then you do not need.There are few if any of you who can be called hunters, killers and takers at the best.Of those animals confined and not free ,death is a gift to them they can return at a later time to be free.You have turned the hunt into tv shows and things to buy in a store,the bow i use was built by hand in tradition of my people,my arrows are built by hand,they were fletched by hand and trued by hand and never has been used to take any animal that was not needed,you need to kill for a different reason than we, you call it sport.Killing for sport to us is an act of sin.What honor is there in using a high power rifle to kill an animal from 100-500 yards away?I watch your tv and see those who kill laugh and jump and dance after they have killed and bring disgrace to the animal spirit they have taken,when they should be quiet and kneel and be thankful it has given itself to them.To you death is such a joy,An ocassion to celebrate,to take the life of any living thing that is not needed is un-ethical.How do you then argue ethics?I have not read one response here by anyone who even mentioned they needed what they took to eat?They may have WANTED what they took, but did not need.So in reality your ethics arguments are mute,you have none.
On occasion I'll take the time to respond to indivduals whose ideas seem to be way off the mark.Although Crazy HORSE is entitled to his opinion,he's not entitled to make up his own facts.The first being that if you work and have money then there is no need to hunt,so our animal populations get out of balance resulting in malnourished herds that may have large die offs that takes years to reclaim.Although he speaks as if the AMERICAN NATIVE INDIAN doesn't take pleasure in his kills,history shows earlier paintings in caves depicts just the opposite.History also shows the NATIVE INDIAN used wildfires to funnel animals into killing zones,along with the use of snares that humanely strangled thier quarry to death.The long bow is a poor weapon no matter if it's hand made or not,if the NATIVE AMERICAN had the choice he quickly traded up to a rifle that became available to them.RED,BLACK OR WHITE,THE urge to hunt is natural in mankind and as CRAZY HORSE watches on his NATIVE AMERICAN T.V SET THE world changes,as he should well know 300 hundred years after the fact.
I understand that just because their is a high fence it is not always a guarantee kill however it is easier to keep down pressure of predators as well as keeping the game on the land inside the fence and the deer are then basically grown with special diets to become monster bucks for most hunters this will always be an issue B/C has recognized the difference just saying
I am a deer hunter been hunting for over 25 yrs never hunted high fence always wanted to. but I have looked at a few places to high fence hunt and found that most are 1000 acres or more I know of one I looked at is fenced in 3 sq mi to me that's a pretty fair hunt were I live we have state land next to our 400 acre cattle farm the state land is 80 acres and they have during deer season on average 40 hunters on that property that's a hunter every 2 acres is that a fair chase hunt hmmmm that poor deer does not have a chance in hell to get away unless the hunters are blind, poor shots , or manage to get on our place and don't get in my cross hairs.
but what bugs me the most about stories like this is were do you think those big buck images come from in there magazine??? I have been hunting a long time and very rarely seen a nice big buck like they have in this magazine for the big ones are to smart to just walk up to the camera guy and say take my photo
The food based arguments aren't germaine to the discussion.
First, the odds are against paying to hunt at a fenced ranch becuase it's an economical way to put food on the table.
Secondly, I love a good steak as much as the next guy, but it's never occurred to me to mount the steer's head on the wall as a point of pride.
Another assnine statement from someone with no clue on how a farm or ranch is even run...Lte me walk you through it.Every deer on a farm is tb/bruc test any deer that dies on any farm is cwd tested. There are states that have cwd outside the fence but not inside..explain that one...A whitetail deer behind a fence is the healthiest whitetail in the world. A grain fed,top alpalpa genticaly superior whitetail is the best eating whitetail you will ever find. Whats on their head is just a plus for the people that choose to take one.Again mabey not yourself but 90% of the people that are against high fence are not against the fence,they are against the pricetag!!! That in fact is no higher of a cost than it is to fork out the pricetag on a week hunt at a low fence area where you MIGHT get lucky and see a 130in deer. Thats if the 20 hunters that have been there before you didnt run them all out of the woods.
Well you are getting a little better on the whole deer farming idea but your assnine statements are just that! The deer that are raised on farms are not fed any steroids as you call them.Deer that are fed anything besides a balanced diet of grains and alpalpha mabey givin probotics.This is no different than what is givin to sheep and goats to help keep the rumen healthy. A happy rumen = a happy and healthy animal.This is pretty good coming from a magazine that has had so many deer on their front cover and most have been taken on deer farms!!!!I guess as long as you guys can sell magazines you will use our deer but then you turn around and bash deer farmers.Why dont you write a story of how many of these so called pro hunters hunt behind high fences top make their tv shows! I know it happens as i have seen it live in person.You guy really should stick to taking pictures because when you write about this sh!t you have no idea about makes you and your magazine look like the assclowns!!
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