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Politics, Special Interests Could Kill New York Youth Hunt

July 16, 2012
Politics, Special Interests Could Kill New York Youth Hunt - 44

Governor Andrew Cuomo has a bill on his desk that will kill the long-awaited youth deer hunt currently adopted by the New York Department of Conservation. You read right, the DEC finally adopted a special deer hunt for kids but the Legislature sent a bill to the Governor prohibiting it.

For years, New York’s hunters and the state Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) have been kicking around the idea of a special youth deer hunt. The hunt made it into the DEC’s 5-year deer management plan and really started to gain traction among NY hunters. The DEC moved forward with the adoption process, which included conducting hunter surveys, holding public hearings, and collecting and reviewing public comment. In spite of opposition by The New York Bowhunters Inc. and others opposing the kids’ hunt, it was determined that the majority of hunters in the state favored a youth hunt for deer.

By spring, the hunt had gathered momentum. The DEC officially scheduled the 3-day hunt for Columbus Day weekend based on research done with youth hunters and their mentors. Legislation was developed to make it official and hunting families started making plans to get young Jimmy his first deer.

That’s before The New York Bowhunters Inc. sharpened their spears, or should I say arrows, and launched a full-court press to derail the hunt (read more about that battle here). They blitzed the office of Democratic Assemblyman Bob Sweeney, Chair of the Environmental Conservation Committee, to voice their opposition to the hunt. Sweeney holds the keys to the legislative side of all things DEC and without his OK, a bill doesn’t even get out of committee. With the bowhunters looking on, Sweeney wrote an amendment to the current crossbow law which stated that the only youth hunt permitted during archery season would be an archery only hunt. In other words, no youth gun hunts for deer during archery season. If the Governor signs the bill, the hunt is history and New York Bowhunters Inc. will have the woods to themselves Columbus Day weekend.

Assemblyman Sweeney’s office maintains that the state’s bowhunters were overwhelmingly opposed to the proposed youth hunt. During a conversation with one of Sweeney's spokespeople, I pointed out that New York Bowhunters Inc’s membership is comprised of a small fraction of the state’s bowhunters (over 2,000 out of about 200,000 bowhunters in the state). I also suggested they don’t necessarily speak for all the bowhunters in the state. But the spokesperson stated that the group was not the only opposition to the hunt and the opposition was overwhelming.

And, since their obligation is to serve the hunting public, there was little choice but to back those opposing the hunt. The Assemblyman’s office stated that they are definitely pro hunting (and cited evidence to prove it) and pro youth hunts. They also stated that they hoped a way to have the hunt could be worked out but it didn’t belong in the bow season as originally proposed and adopted by the DEC.

The NY Bowhunter’s maintain steadfastly that they are not against youth hunts either. They claim to strongly support them, they just don’t want a big-game firearms hunt during their bow season (which has just been lengthened by 2 weeks and just happens to span the Columbus Day weekend). They have been consistent in their position and opposition to the hunt since the hunt was proposed more than a year ago. The bowhunting organization has been beaten up plenty for its position, but its members pressed on, and worked the legislative system. And frankly, they won the day, at least with the Chair of the Environmental Conservation Committee.

According to a source in the know, there is still hope for the hunt. The Governor may be dissuaded from signing the bill for economic impact and other reasons. Apparently his office is still looking at the pros and cons including the political fall-out of being accused of being anti-youth and anti-hunting. They are still hearing from individuals attempting to save the hunt. Others maintain this issue is small-ball to the Governor and he’ll sign it just to get it off his desk. At his point, it’s anyone’s guess.

If he refuses to sign the bill, the hunt should go on and the kids will get their weekend in the woods. If the bill gets signed, the kids lose the hunt unless supporters (namely the DEC) scramble to get a plan “B” in place for 2012.

State after state is successfully running youth hunts. Hundreds of thousands of kids have been introduced to hunting through special youth hunts and in spite of what their detractors might claim, the data show them to be enormously effective and well worth the effort.

The key to plan “B” will be selecting a date for the hunt. This should hardly be a deal breaker. Even though the DEC’s research indicated that Columbus Day weekend would be the best choice for the hunt, a weekend in late September received plenty of support. What’s wrong with that for plan “B”?  That’s a great time to take does out of the herd there will be plenty of “shooter” bucks around. Also, the weather should be plenty hospitable to youngsters. Most of all, it doesn’t fall during bow season and should receive plenty of support from the NY Bowhunters and Assembly Sweeney’s office both of whom in principle, are pro youth hunt.

A spokesperson from Assemblyman Sweeney’s office stated that there is plenty of time to reschedule the hunt for 2012 and they would like to support an alternative date. A spokesperson I interviewed from the DEC was unwilling to discuss the matter other than to state repeatedly “the 2012 youth hunt has been adopted but the DEC will comply with any law passed which impacts the hunt.”

She refused to elaborate on that statement or take additional questions to further clarify her position or willingness to work with another date. One can only hope. And while we’re on the topic of hoping, let’s hope the politicians and the DEC can get on the same page.

New York hunters deserve better.

Comments (44)

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from CF wrote 1 year 40 weeks ago

With the youth hunt now behind us thankfully without incident, I think it has been quite well established that the hastily implemented youth gun hunt on opening weekend of bow season was a bad idea. I talked to many property owners, none of which allowed slug gun shooting on their properties during bow season. I also heard some adult mentors that did not want to risk getting kids in the middle of problems and conflicts with bow hunters, particularly on state land. As a result and unfortunately, the participation level was probably much less than expected. The DEC assumed that their surveys represented the voice of the majority of hunters (bow and gun), which turned out to be a failed assumption. Once news started to circulate in the days just before the youth hunt weekend, people really began to wake up and take notice to the absurdity, and resulting controversy quickly ensued. As much as everyone wants to support youth hunting, this poorly planned implementation put a black cloud over what should have been a good thing. Going forward, it would be wise for the DEC to give serious consideration to the compromises that many have suggested: 12-15 YO youth archery hunt (including crossbows) during the weekend before bow season opener, a 14-15 YO youth gun hunt during the third weekend of November and move regular gun season opening day to the traditional third Monday of November.

This approach would address many of the safety and logistical concerns, yet still provide the youth with first crack at harvesting opportunities and hopefully create lasting memories and renewed interest in the sport.

Still looming is the unresolved, NY Bowhunters crafted legislation (A10583) collecting dust on the Governor’s desk that would renew crossbow use regulation in New York, but only during gun season, and would also eliminate future youth hunts. Those in the NY sporting community that do not support NYB’s agenda, should write their elected representatives and public officials, including the governor of New York and the commissioner of the New York State DEC, and demand that this bill be thrown back to the legislature and modified to allow crossbow use during bow season (at least for youths, disabled and elderly), and allow future youth hunts. Now that there is broad awareness of this debate within the NY sporting community, NYB will have to decide if it wants to step out of the shadows and stand behind this compromise approach, which would go a long way toward rebuilding its credibility as an otherwise youth supportive organization.

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from adjam5 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

I appreciate everyones opinion here also. For the record...There are some items to many things in many things, I do not agree with totally. It does not mean I do not support the majority of what something stands for. For every opinion on here...How many have gotten youth involved in the outdoors and how many voulenteer their time to help spread the word about the outdooors? I take great pride in getting the youth of NYS in the woods. I raised 3 sons who all have lifetime sportsman/archery licenses(I have lifetime trapping and muzzleloading also). Who all hunt and whom all, have been sucessful. The 6 kids I have taken hunting and taught firearm safety /shooting/archery to are my sons friends and one of them was a girl. There is a group in NYS that want to hunt with a Atlatl...what season should that be in?
I still firmly stand with NYB on 95% of their stance. That is enough for me.
So instead of whining about what other organizations do and stand for... Become proactive yourself. The squeeky wheel gets the grease. The computer has many folks experts. Not.

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

CF - Good luck to you as well!

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from CF wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Bigguy01,
"We will need to agree to disagree on this. I feel that this mindset is based solely on fear. "

We'll indeed have to agree to disagree. My argument was based on physics and circumstance, not fear. You can't argue with the physics of flat vs. downward trajectory. I agree there will be more people in the woods during gun season, but the vast majority will be wearing orange or red, and clearly visible. The risk in bow season is that a youth gun hunter and his/her mentor for that matter, sitting in a ground blind may not know that a camo-concealed hunter is lurking nearby. This risk is low, but it is an elevated risk that could be mitigated by allowing youth hunters to use crossbows instead of firearms during bow season, or move the youth hunt to September.

"Firearms accidents are usually very tragic, but they are also very rare (this is something that we continually point out to anti-hunting groups, but yet it is ignored in this case?), so the "liberal anti-hunting" fear tactic will not work on me."

Thanks for pointing out the safety track record. This is something that needs continuous reinforcement at all levels. Statistically, hunting is one of the safest activities. Sorry if you misinterpreted my comment. I hope that you don't consider me a fear mongering liberal...I'm very far from it. I was only siting the inevitable backlash from the anti's if an accident occurs, but let's hope that doesn't happen. Our safety record can be attributed in large part to our outstanding education programs, volunteers and stewards, including yourself and many others who have commented. Thank you Bigguy01 and Adjam5!

I think this is about as far as I'm willing to go on this topic. Sorry if I offended anyone, it was a good spirited debate. Good luck and best wishes to everyone. Be safe and enjoy this hunting season with your friends and family. Please feel free to PM.

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from Josh Giannino wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

bioguy- I could see that CF's idea with the crossbow being possibly a good way for the youth hunt to happen, give the kids and advantage, and also allow archery hunters like me, who worry about deer pressure a good middle of the road oppurtunity, as well as i agree with you that disabled and elderly should be allowed crossbows for archery, Plus i wouldnt mind seeing maybe a early or late crossbow season as well

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from CF wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Adjam5, thanks for clearing that up. I give you credit for supporting crossbows for the youth, seniors and disabled or impaired, but you seem to be at odds with NYB in that respect, even though you say that you “will continue to support NYB and ALL of their beliefs.” So which is it?

I won’t bother to respond to your weak arguments about the merits of crossbow vs compound bow. I suspect that there were similar groups of long bow hunters that objected to compound bows at first, sighting technical advantages…

Personally, I wouldn’t have a problem with someone who made a choice to use a crossbow instead of a compound bow in whatever season for whatever reason. You site an example of one woman that decided not to use a crossbow for personal reasons. Great, I give her credit. She made a personal decision, good for her. So does she now set the moral standard by which we all must meet?

I applaud NYB for many of its initiatives to promote the sport, education and youth activities. But, in my opinion NYB cheapened itself with its crossbow rhetoric and lobbying the legislature to kill the youth hunt with legislative trickery (so much for promoting youth hunting). NYB could have demonstrated mature leadership and integrity by compromising and allowing the youth to hunt with crossbows during bow season, and supporting crossbows for seniors and the physically impaired or disabled. Instead, NYB has promoted petty hunter against hunter infighting. Nice job NYB!

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

"The reason why a crossbow should NOT be allowed in the archery season is...It is point and shoot like a gun. A scoped, pre cocked shoulder fired weapon... like a gun."

A gun huh? Well it has the range of a bow. Also you can equip a bow with a scope...most hunters don't but it doesn't mean the option isn't available. It might be a "point and shoot" interface, but it still requires the hunter to close the distance to within 20-30 yards of a deer (based on the ability of the animal to jump the string regardless of which weapon is used), and isn't that what bow hunting is all about? Getting close enough to your quarry to get a shot off? I find that most bow hunters who try a crossbow, go back to a normal bow. The challenge of the draw adds that little bit of extra excitement.

" A stroke survivor told me a crossbow was cheating."

I find this is the mentality of many bow hunters...even when given the option, they will still opt to us a vertical bow. However, that decision should not be made for them...they should have the option and choose for themselves. I do admire that lady's ambition and pride.

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

adjam5:

"I am glad to live in America where people can have different opinions. I will continue to support NYB and ALL of their beliefs. I will continue to introduce youth( so far 6 in all) to archery hunting and fishing. I will not sit behind a pc and preach to those who need a opinion. I am quite active in getting youth outdoors and involved. Every hunter ed course given here in my county I am there to help out and be involved. I am proactive."

I commend you for this.

"I will continue to push to keep the crossgun in the firearm season. Where it belongs. Hunting is not about guaranteeing success."

Since when does using a crossBOW guarantee success? It still requires the hunter to get 20-30 yards from his/her intended quarry. Putting a crossbow in somebody's hands doesn't guarantee squat. If it did, we would never have any deer after firearms season, because firearms are not limited by range like a crossbow is! Only a fraction of gun hunters actually fill their tags, so why would you think crossbow hunters would be just as successful, if not more? This doesn't make sense.

"One way I feel NYB's stance on the crossbow is a little too hardcore is. Legitimately hurt archers, seniors, youth and vets should be able to use the crossbow in archery season. But if you are a healthy archer...learn to draw a bow in the prescense of the animal being hunted."

I admire your stance to allow youth, elderly, and disabled to use a crossbow. It's the right thing to do. I don't disagree with your opinion on healthy archers using a bow, but I don't fully agree with it either. I would prefer all healthy archers use a regular bow, but I also understand the necessity to increase hunter participation in the full spectrum of hunting seasons. More hunters in the woods equates to more tags sold, and hopefully that can buy DEC some time to figure out how to keep funds flowing for fish & wildlife. Hunting license sales are declining, and hunters and fisherman almost exclusively fund wildlife management programs. The alternatives are to sell more licenses, or increase license costs.

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

"Today's center fire rifles and sabot slugs will carry much further than most reasonable small game loads except varmint, which is a whole different story. Also, youth hunters are not allowed to hunt from tree stands, so they lose the safety net that a downward trajectory provides after a missed shot. Now throw in inexperience, buck fever and the fact that most bow hunters don't wear orange and you have the recipe for conflicts or accidents. Just imagine the liberal backlash when the first accident happens from a youth hunt. Anti-hunting will become a required course in public school curriculum. The net sum is not good for the sport."

We will need to agree to disagree on this. I feel that this mindset is based solely on fear. Most youth hunters will be hunting on private land where circumstances can be controlled. They will also be monitored by a mentor, and youths are equally as inexperienced and apt to get buck fever and also required to hunt from the ground with the same high-powered calibers you mentioned above during the regular firearms season when there are 500,000 other gun hunters in the woods instead of just a fraction of that in archery hunters, and yet they have proven to be safe so far. Firearms accidents are usually very tragic, but they are also very rare (this is something that we continually point out to anti-hunting groups, but yet it is ignored in this case?), so the "liberal anti-hunting" fear tactic will not work on me.

I do, however, agree with your viewpoint on crossbows. It would be a great opportunity for youths to enjoy the full benefits of the archery season. Good luck hunting this season!

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from adjam5 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

To CF

The reason why a crossbow should NOT be allowed in the archery season is...It is point and shoot like a gun. A scoped, pre cocked shoulder fired weapon... like a gun. The simple fact that it does NOT have to be drawn in the prescense of the animal disqualifies it. Regardless of projectile. There are guns that shoot arrows/bolts. Are they archery also?
If you never been busted drawing your bow...you havn't been bow hunting enough. Yes the advent of ground blinds help in that endeavor...but you still need to draw, keep your arrow on the rest, choose the right pin(not lay on the crosshairs) and make the shot. There is a reason gun hunters are more sucessful. Point and shoot. Can't do that with a hand drawn bow.
Matter of fact, back in April. A few guys from NY Bow volenteered time at a rehab hospital in down state NY( Helen Hayes Hosptal)at a adaptive sports expo to promote archery and hunting for the disabled. I personally spoke to a woman who was recovering from a stroke. She bow hunted before her stroke, and wanted to get back in the game. I suggested a crossbow...She...not me...said that was cheating. Imagine that? A stroke survivor told me a crossbow was cheating. Wow! It was my suggestion to use a crossbow too!
That made me think. She didnt want the rules changed so she couldbe successful. She wanted to hunt like the rest of us. That was her goal. An amazing woman with great pride.

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from adjam5 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

I am glad to live in America where people can have different opinions. I will continue to support NYB and ALL of their beliefs. I will continue to introduce youth( so far 6 in all) to archery hunting and fishing. I will not sit behind a pc and preach to those who need a opinion. I am quite active in getting youth outdoors and involved. Every hunter ed course given here in my county I am there to help out and be involved. I am proactive.
I will continue to push to keep the crossgun in the firearm season. Where it belongs. Hunting is not about guaranteeing success. No law or regulation in the world can do that. (going off the reservation here) One way I feel NYB's stance on the crossbow is a little too hardcore is. Legitimately hurt archers, seniors, youth and vets should be able to use the crossbow in archery season. But if you are a healthy archer...learn to draw a bow in the prescense of the animal being hunted. A Draw lock permit from DEC is a much easier permit to get. Regardless of what some may say on this board. A modified archers permit is $5 and the draw lock costs about $35-$50.
No one does more for disabled archers and has more youth camps than NY Bowhunters...period.

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from CF wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Adjam5, if you are such a NYB expert and cheerleader, please provide a fact-based, logical argument why crossbows should not be allowed in archery season? Don't tell us that its all some kind of plot by the crossbow industry. Really...is the crossbow industry going to send lackeys in the woods to hunt for us? Or that the DEC's survey didn't include enough people...how many people would be enough???

NYB doesn't even consider an exception for youth hunters, the physcially disabled and seniors. They have to buy parts to make their compound bows work like crossbows? Really?

For an organization that purports to promote hunting, your policies seem to me to be extremely exclusive.

How many of your members support these policies? How many would be enough??

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from CF wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Bigguy01,
I couldn't agree more that small game is the best way to introduce youths to hunting. My daughter and I will do just that in a few weeks when she turns 12 and gets her birthday present from dad - a lifetime hunting license.

I would support a youth gun hunt in September. I also like your idea of archers wearing orange to/from stand and posting an orange ribbon around your tree during the youth hunt.

Sorry, but I have to disagree your statement, "Youth hunters are already allowed to use rifles during archery season on small game. It wasn't until the quarry switched to deer that archery hunters had a problem with firearms being use during the archery season."

Today's center fire rifles and sabot slugs will carry much further than most reasonable small game loads except varmint, which is a whole different story. Also, youth hunters are not allowed to hunt from tree stands, so they lose the safety net that a downward trajectory provides after a missed shot. Now throw in inexperience, buck fever and the fact that most bow hunters don't wear orange and you have the recipe for conflicts or accidents. Just imagine the liberal backlash when the first accident happens from a youth hunt. Anti-hunting will become a required course in public school curriculum. The net sum is not good for the sport.

I don't see the big taboo about crossbows. If everyone is whining about the spirit of cooperation, why not allow crossbows for the youth hunt, if not for everyone? I think crossbows would be a great way to introduce youths to deer hunting without the intimidation factor and safety concerns of a center fire rifle or shoulder busting slug gun, especially for those with a smaller stature.

Many 12-13 year olds are not quite big enough to draw a lethal compound bow. If crossbows were allowed during bow season as part of New York's Junior Hunter Mentoring Program, they would be able to deer hunt at 12. There's an opportunity to get more kids interested in hunting. Small game warm-up in September followed by deer with crossbow in October...hunters for life.

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

akferraro1 - Spot on!

Josh Gianinno - It's important to remember that just because a hunting based organization pushes strongly for one issue or another doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You really need to analyze all of the facts and make that call on your own, and ring the BS bell loudly when something doesn't sound right. There are some issues where NYB will receive my full support, this just wasn't one of them. It made New York bow hunters look selfish and ignorant to the rest of the hunting community, and that's no cool! You know what the worst enemy to hunters is? Some would say anti-hunting organizations like PETA or HSUS, but really, what have they ever done to eliminate hunting opportunities? Nothing really...we're too united and have better facts and science on our side to let them win. No, the worst enemy to hunters is other hunters. I mean look at NYB...it's an organization of hunters thought to promote hunting right? Yet this year they prevented both a youth hunt, and they prevented the ability of disabled and elderly hunters to use crossbows during the regular archery season? Does that sound "pro-hunting" to you? What's worse it their tactics were not based in science and facts, but rather fears and opinion. The facts and science say there's no reason not to allow a youth hunt or cross bows. When political legislation can be swayed by fears, opinion, and strong feelings, hunters lose! Now that's dangerous! I'll take a battle against PETA or HSUS any day, because that's a battle we can, and always will win. In a battle of hunter vs. hunter...there's ultimately going to be a loser, and that loser is going to be a fellow hunter and that's not cool!

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from Josh Giannino wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Im not* typos suck

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from Josh Giannino wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Bioguy01- you are making a very well placed arguemnt, and I can see a late september youth firearm season very viable. Your arguement has a strong base and you pointed out information I did not see or read, I will say Im a 100% on board with the idea as i have my doubts and skepticism of the hunt, but If DEC has the research and facts you've proven, I would have to agree it would be a good Idea.

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from akferraro1 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

bioguy,

Today we favor organized sports and activities over free time outside. Kids are at practice or playing video games. Weekends are often consumed buy team sports- so it's very important to make the most out of any opportunities to hunt. Sunday hunting bans (in PA) absolutely kill youth hunting because free Saturdays are very rare- at least special youth hunts give us a chance. I'm happy to say I've gotten a number of kids (my own and their friends) into fishing, but hunting is a much harder sell and we need all the help we can get. We are losing this battle and it's not even close.

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Josh Gianinno

"wouldnt having kid sout on the first day improve there odds as well?"

It's the best shot they currently have. The point of the youth hunt is to try to give them a full-on advantage. Give them a chance at the herd when the herd numbers are highest, and there's not as many other gun hunters to compete with for space. Further, adults can devote their full attention to the youth hunter's success.

"Plus what about the safety aspect of it? NYS Bow hutner are not required to wear blaze orange and choose not tooo, all the youth hunts need is one accident involving a youth hunter and an archery or even FALL TURKEY HUNTER and all of the sudden kids cant firearm hunt till there sixteen."

1) There is no requirement in NY for hunters to wear blaze orange. It's highly encouraged, but it's not law.

2) There's no reason why archery hunters and fall turkey hunters could not wear an orange cap while moving, and place an orange band around a tree that is viewable from 360 degrees while sitting. (these are the requirements in PA whenever these seasons overlap with other gun seasons)

3) Youth hunters are already allowed to use rifles during archery season on small game. It wasn't until the quarry switched to deer that archery hunters had a problem with firearms being use during the archery season.

4) Why is it that safety is all of a sudden a concern when 80,000 archery hunters are asked to share the woods with 13,000 youth gun hunters (most of which will be hunting private land, and all of which can participate in small game seasons with firearms), but it's not a concern when the same youth hunters share the woods with about 500,000 other gun hunters? I think there's enough room in NY's woods to conduct a very safe early season youth gun hunt during the archery season, don't you?

5) Several states conduct safe youth firearms deer hunts during the regular archery season...why can't NY be one of them?

"Then add in the adults who will not have the ethics to say kids only and will go out and blast a buck themselves"

And the current regulations stop them from poaching deer how?You're really going to deny 13,000 youths the opportunity to get first crack a the deer herd because you're afraid a few poachers will take advantage of the season? A poacher is a poacher...it doesn't matter what season is open or closed, they're going to harvest illegally harvest game some way or another. As I said before, firearms are already legal during the archery season...the scenario you mentioned above is likely already happening. The most we can do is monitor the problem and report any incidents we come across...just like any other poaching scenario.

"There is alot of factors on both sides you need to consider can go wrong"

It's not a bad thing to consider what can go wrong, but it's also important to keep things in perspective. NYB is notorious for exaggerating and using fear tactics to get their way. When you compare what can go wrong during the archery season and what can go wrong during the regular firearms season, the regular firearms season will win every time. Now compare that with the number of firearms accidents that actually do happen during the regular deer season involving youths, and you'll understand that the "safety concerns" archery hunters have are simply not justified. A little common sense and blaze orange can go a long way.

How about this...if safety is such a concern, then why not move the youth hunt up to the last weekend in September? As a bow hunter, would you be OK with that? And if not, then why not?

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from Josh Giannino wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

sorry for the typo's

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from Josh Giannino wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Bioguy01- wouldnt having kid sout on the first day improve there odds as well? with 500,000 hunters in the woods, the deer are moving and i see just as many or MORE on a givin day during opening week, as i do during natural patterns of archery, and i have had PLENTY of inside 50 yard shots on still relaxed deer, Plus what about the safety aspect of it? NYS Bow hutner are not required to wear blaze orange and choose not tooo, all the youth hunts need is one accident involving a youth hunter and an archery or even FALL TURKEY HUNTER and all of the sudden kids cant firearm hunt till there sixteen. wouldnt that be a bigger killer to the sport then the kids not having an earlier weekend? Then add in the adults who will not have the ethics to say kids only and will go out and blast a buck themselves ( I see it all the time and shake my head with the youth Turkey hunt) There is alot of factors on both sides you need to consider can go wrong,

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 52 weeks ago

akferraro1 - Don't forget video games, television, smart phones, computers, other sports, clubs, etc. Getting youths in the woods isn't as easy as it was 25-30 years ago. I practically grew up outside...now you hardly even see a kid riding a bicycle, much less toting a fishing pole or BB gun.

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from akferraro1 wrote 1 year 52 weeks ago

So now we have to fight Disney, PETA, liberal politicans and bowhunters to get kids interested in hunting- wonderful!!!

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from Craig Dougherty wrote 1 year 52 weeks ago

Come on guys. I've blogged twice now on the youth hunt and both time gotten grief about not writing about all the good stuff the NY Bowhunters do. The blog is not about NYB it's about the youth hunt. I can't help it that the NYB opposes the hunt. It's a fact. To borrow a phrase from Yogi, "Look it up".
My Editor likes to remind me--"one topic at a time". For now the topic is our kids and the hunt they might not have. I look forward to writing some nice stuff about the NYB some day,(and yes, I'll have plenty to write about) but as long as I'm on the kids hunt, the facts are the facts and they ain't all that pretty.

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 8 hours ago

That said, I WILL commend NYB on many accomplishments they have made to hunting in NY. They have helped introduce youths to archery, have made contributions to NY's hunter education programs, they run youth archery camps, hunts for war veterans, and other programs that promote hunting as a whole.

However, when they disallow a youth firearms hunt because it occurs during "their" season is inexcusable. Disallowing crossbow use during regular archery season for disabled and sr. hunters is also inexcusable. If NYB continued forward promoting the "big picture" of hunting as a whole, I would fully support their cause, but they don't. Their most recent action in Albany was just plain selfish, and black mark on NYs bow hunting community. When NYB acts in such a manner, that's how the rest of NY's hunters see bow hunters, and I don't want to be associated with that kind of anti-hunting behavior. A respectful gesture would have been to push the youth hunt forward BEFORE the archery season, giving youth the first crack at the deer herd. Also, a compromise to allow disabled and Sr. hunters use crossbows during the regular archery season is a perfectly reasonable request. Could you imagine how unselfish and respectable it would have made NYB look? My hats would be off to them if they did that. Instead, I'm condemning them because their actions were incredibly selfish.

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 8 hours ago

adjam5:

When did I commend NYB? I blatantly stated that I thought making disabled hunters purchase a bow, and then purchase all of the accessories to make it pretty much shoot like a crossbow was ridiculous. Apparently you didn't read that first part of my post.

The message I posted from their website regarding crossbows and disabled hunters was intended to display NYB's ignorance. Lol...seeing as you thought I was "commending" them, thanks for proving my point!

NYB thinks they're doing disabled people a favor by helping develop equipment to modify their vertical bows to have more crossbow-like features. Despite what NYB thinks, they're just making disabled people jump through more hoops and spend more money than they need to. Why buy a $300 bow and spend MORE money modifying the heck out of it to make it shoot similar to a crossbow, when they can just make a 1-time $300 purchase of a crossbow?

If the physically challenged want to hunt with a regular bow modified with all of the bells and whistles, that's fine by me...but they should at least have a choice between that and a crossbow.

Further, 35#s is the minimum draw weight in NY...how far is the effective range on a #35 bow? 10...maybe 15 yards...and that's what they expect youths, women, the elderly, and the disabled to bow hunt with? Why can't they use a weapon that can tackle game out to 40 yards like the rest of the healthy and strong built bow hunting community? How is that fair that they are limited to such crappy equipment because of their physique and health? That's hardly a fair opportunity!

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 9 hours ago

CF

"However, I won't let my daughter gun hunt during the youth weekend. She will bow hunt during bow season and gun hunt during gun season, as it should be."

To each their own, but I recommend you take her small game hunting instead. IMO, deer are about the WORST species to start youth out on, and bow hunting for deer is too boring and challenging for youth hunters. If you want to hook a youth hunter on the sport, small is where it's at! They're abundant and the chances of a successful small game hunt are WAY better than the chances of deer bow hunt. However, I believe if you're going to start youth out on deer, you might as well give them the highest chance of success, because being successful in the field is ultimately what gives them the encouragement to keep doing it. Think about it like this...when you want to get a youth hooked on fishing, do you take them muskie fishing? NO! They're too damn hard to catch. You take them after something small, abundant, and easy to catch so they can be successful. Same concept applies for hunting. Sometimes I think hunters forget that deer aren't the only critters in the woods worth hunting.

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from adjam5 wrote 2 years 14 hours ago

Big guy...you have made a few valid points. Your insight is appreciated. You have knocked NYB and you have commended it. I take that as being somewhat fair in your assesment.
You seem smart enough to know that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. That is how it works in Albany. NYB is proactive in their vision and they put their money where their mouth is in helping disabled archers and teaching archery in youth camps(over 1600 served). No other hunting organization in NYS has NYB's track record in donating time and helping others enjoy archery.
The article on this discussion did not take anytime to say how NYB helps promote archery or tout its accomplishments. Hmmm...what is the motivation behind just bashing and not commending? When there are valid items to commend. Shouldn't a reporter tell all sides? Or do they work for the Obama campaign?

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from CF wrote 2 years 18 hours ago

Wow, this has digressed into quite the us vs. them, political debate. Obviously there are strong opinions on this. There is no way to satisfy everyone. Personally, I don't think new/inexperienced kids gun hunting with single projectile deer guns from the ground (as required by DEC regulations) during camo-ridden bow season is a good idea from a safety standpoint. I also have my opinions about the effects on bow hunting in that point of the season just before the rut, but I am willing to give it a chance. I see the benefits of a youth hunting weekend before chaotic regular gun season. I agree that it is a great way to introduce youths to the sport. I think limiting the youth hunting implements to bow and/or crossbow would have been a better compromise, but I am willing to accept the new regulation and move on. However, I won't let my daughter gun hunt during the youth weekend. She will bow hunt during bow season and gun hunt during gun season, as it should be.

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 1 day ago

Here's NYB's official stance on crossbows. According to them it's all a big ploy by crossbow companies to invade archery seasons. They offer the alternative to modify a regular bow to accomplish the same task as a crossbow. So not only would a physically disabled person need to buy a bow, but they would also need to buy all of the equipment necessary to modify that bow to make it shoot just like a crossbow. Seem a little ridiculous to you? It does to me.

"There has been an intense effort to permit individuals with disabilities to use a crossbow during the archery-only season here in NY. Most of the requests are made by crossbow manufacturers and known crossbow supporters. Bowhunters are very skeptical of such actions since they are just an attempt by crossbow promoters to get a foot in the door for enhanced seasons in the future.

Many bowhunters who are physically challenged use modified archery equipment to successfully take big game. These hunters include individuals who are blind, wheelchair bound, those with the use of only one arm, people with very little body mobility and many others. Crossbow promoters are saying that the physically challenged, seniors, youth, and female hunters need the crossbow to participate in the archery only season. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is just another attempt to invade the archery-only seasons under the disguise of helping the “Weak". Women, youth and seniors are currently enjoying all hunting seasons without the use of the crossbow. With let-off’s of 85% or more on modem compound bows a person pulling 35 pounds is only holding 5 pounds at full draw. For those few individuals that can not draw a bow there is the "Handicapped Archers Permit". The permit allows qualified individuals to hunt with a bow equipped with a wide variety of available devices. The NYB Physically Challenged Committee has helped many individuals in this regard and will continue to do so.
The Physically Challenged Committee was formed to assist those Physically Challenged hunters who thought that they would never again be able to bowhunt, to in fact enjoy our sport once again. The NYB Physically Challenged Committee has led the nation in developing innovative accessories and techniques which allows Physically Challenged hunters to legally bowhunt with modified archery equipment. The Physically Challenged Committee has helped numerous hunters from across New York State and the country to get back out into the outdoors to enjoy bowhunting once again. This list of hunters includes paraplegics, quadriplegics, amputees, the blind and the deaf to name just a few. Many other hunters with various illnesses and diseases have also been helped by the committee."

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 1 day ago

adjam5:

"Dont tell me NYB is selfish."

On the "future goals" page of their website you will find the following:

"Expand early archery-only seasons;
● Southern zone - October 1st
● Northern zone - September 1st

Annually open the Southern Zone firearms regular season on the Saturday or Monday before Thanksgiving."

I did the math, this would give southern zone archery hunters anywhere from 47-59 days of hunting opportunity each year! All of that during which they will not share "their" season for a youth firearms hunt or early muzzle loader hunt. That time-span also covers every segment of the rut from pre-rut to post-rut. How is that not selfish? You only get to hunt the rut if you're a healthy bow hunter. Since crossbows aren't legal (and NYB is HEAVILY against crossbow use), the young, the elderly, and the disabled cannot participate. I'm a bow hunter and even I think that's selfish! I love bow hunting, but its not worth pizzing off the rest of the deer hunting community.

You will also find the following on the NYB website:

"The following are planned DEC actions that are detrimental to New York’s archery seasons:

-the possibility of conducting a youth firearms weekend hunt during the southern and northern zone archery-only seasons,
-conduct a muzzleloading hunt during the southern zone archery-only season,
-allow for the use of crossbows during All the archery seasons."

"NYB is opposed to conducting any type of firearms season during the bow-only seasons. There is no need to have a special youth weekend firearms big game hunt as there are plenty of opportunities to take a kid hunting over the duration of all the existing seasons. Bowhunters gave up the last weekend of their bow season in the southern zone in 2005 so that kids could participate on the opening day of the regular season. If this youth hunt is truly desired, it should be held on the 1st weekend of the regular firearms season, as has been proposed by the DEC for Suffolk County. However, the DEC is opposed to such an action upstate, as they do not want to upset those of us that gun hunt during the regular season. Obviously the DEC has little concern for the disruption that any firearms season would create during the archery-only seasons."

So why, then, doesn't NYB also lobby for the closing of small game? Small game seasons run concurrently with the archery season and they are allowed to use firearms, but it isn't until deer are the target species that firearms during the bow season becomes an issue despite youth hunters and muzzle loader hunters comprising only a small portion of the hunting populous.

"Of equal concern is the DEC’s proposal to implement a muzzleloading season in the middle of the southern zone archery-only season. The DEC is trying to down play this as a minor issue that should be of little concern to bowhunters. The truth of the matter is that this proposal will potentially affect all of or a portion of 20 (over 40%) of the counties in the southern zone."

What you will NOT find on their website is something to the tune of: "Expand hunting opportunities for youth, the elderly, and the disabled during archery season." Based on their website, things aren't really supporting your argument all that well are they?

Don't get me wrong, I admire some of NYBs past accomplishments in regard to youth, but their most recent actions are not "hunter friendly." I'm not a fan of special interest groups exactly for that reason. They create a divide among hunters and are counter productive to promoting hunting as a whole. That's why I'm not a member of any special interest groups. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what weapon you use to kill an animal. We all share common ground...we are all hunters.

"Obviously, the 3,000 plus members of NYB represent a far greater sampling of the bowhunters of New York than the fraction the DEC used."

NOT when 3,000+ people have a similar opinion. Although the DEC's sample of bow hunters was low, it was random and fair. Your group of 3,000 doesn't necessarily represent the opinions of most bow hunters. If you want a better survey, lobby for DEC to conduct another survey of 5,000 randomly selected bow hunters. Then we'll get a better idea of what the bow hunters of NY really think.

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from adjam5 wrote 2 years 1 day ago

Does NYB represent the opinions of the bowhunters of New York? According the DEC absolutely!! Read on;
For years the DEC as well as many NYB detractors claim that the several thousand members that make up NYB does not adequately represent a cross section or the attitudes of the approximately 200,000 bowhunters in NY.
There are approx 500,000 big game hunters in NY. The goal of the DEC’s Cornell Survey was to supposedly select a cross section of those hunters based on geography and seasons hunted. 5,000 surveys were sent out. Only 2,213 were returned! Of all the respondents, 95% went afield during firearm season. 36% also participated in archery. To qualify to be counted as part of the 36% that were considered the “bowhunters” group, one only had to hunt one day in the previous archery season. This means the DEC accepted, at best, a few hundred opinions of bowhunters, many of whom only bowhunted a few days a year, 95% of whom also hunt with a firearm with which to base their “Deer Plan” on?
Obviously, the 3,000 plus members of NYB represent a far greater sampling of the bowhunters of New York than the fraction the DEC used. The fact is, very few people join the very organizations that fight to support their special interests. Even the NRA only has a few percent of all the gun owners in America.

The Facts:

Below is a summary of NYB's promotion of youth hunting (bow & firearm) opportunities;

1. Aggressive support for bills that would lower the junior big game firearm age to twelve,
2. Twenty years of providing annual free bow hunting youth camps across the state (approx 1600 recipients to date)
3. Archery youth hunts,
4. Youth scholarship program,
5. Youth “Spikes” membership,
6. Annual youth awards program,
7. Donation of hunter education materials,
8. Active participation with donations and instructors for the National Archery in Schools Program. (recognized by DEC as one of the leading donators in NYS)
9. In 2005, bow hunters gave up the last weekend of the archery-only season so that junior firearms hunters come participate in the opening weekend of the regular firearms season.

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from adjam5 wrote 2 years 1 day ago

Wow...you folks believe ANYTHING that is written. I also read somewhere that there is a tooth fairy also. Now you have read it also...Believe it now?
Listen not even the NRA has all of the gun owners in their ranks. But they seem to set policy for gun owners everywhere though huh?
In 2003 the DEC asked for NYB’s support in moving the opening day of regular firearms season from a Monday to a Saturday. On July 18th, 2003, NYB officers met with DEC officials and expressed concern that giving up the last weekend of bow season would not be favorable to members of the bowhunting community. The DEC’s position was that this move would allow more youth to get involved in firearm hunting and they would compensate the bowhunters by extending the bow season to an Oct 1st opener (from the existing at the time Oct 15th).For the sake of the youth of New York, NYB agreed.

In the summer of 2009 after 5 years of extensive attempts to restore lost bowhunting opportunity, NYB was at an impasse with the DEC. It was at this time that NYB and the NYS Muzzloader Association worked out a compromised agreement that addressed the apparent desires of the DEC.
The joint proposal would have;
Opened early (SZ) archery on Oct 1st,
Opened a 5-day, muzzloader season on the Monday prior to the opening of regular firearm season, and
 Allowed for a Youth Firearm Hunt on the weekend prior to the opening of regular firearm season.

Although this caused many NYB members to become disappointed with the organization’s leadership for abandoning NYB’s objective which is preserve bowhunting and prevent superior implements from being used during existing archery seasons. NYB felt that although not perfect, it was better to have firearms at the end of the archery season than at the beginning or middle.
Furthermore it would finally put to rest the false accusations that NYB was selfish. No other hunting organization in this state has ever before or since, offered to give up more than NYB has. Not only for the youth but other hunters as well. Regarding that 2009 joint proposal; The DEC ignored it.

Dont tell me NYB is selfish.

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 2 days ago

Sorry NYB folk, you're not going to get a lot of support here, even among the bow hunters. Hunters throughout the country understand the importance of youth hunting opportunities. Your unwillingness to look past your own self interest is appalling to the rest of the deer hunting community.

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from Robert Webber wrote 2 years 2 days ago

You can thank the new york bowhunters a small group off bowhunters SWEENEY AND MARCELLIMO NEED TO BE VOTED OUT OFF OFFICE !! OH by the way i am a huge bowhunter and i love to bow hunt. I am not a gun hunter. But kids in my world come firs...t. There is NO WAY a couple days for the kids is going to hurt the november rut. Some body has to step up and fight back against NY bowhunters and marcellimo through the social network to get the world out or they will destroy everthink the DEC wants to do I an and landowner and i would give a kid a hunt every year for the rest off my life and hoop he gets the biggest buck on my property !! A TRUE BOWHUNTER

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from Jmelch78 wrote 2 years 2 days ago

WOW!!! Almost makes me ashamed to be a bowhunter...almost. Thank god this group is just a tiny fraction of the bowhunting community in this country. All I hear is me, me, me from that article. It's disappointing to hear that a group would fight against a weekend dedicated to getting YOUTHS involved in such a strong tradition. And reading the comments about how wearing orange in the woods during archery season and trying to hunt would be pointless???? Spoken like a truely unseasoned archer! And deer being impossible to find after gun shots start popping off? Really? Sounds like it's time for alot of you to step up YOUR game a little bit! We have 2 youth gun seasons through the year and both are during archery season. Quit worrying about yourselves and the couple of days that you think will mess up your entire season and try to understand the importance of having a youth season! I'll bet the majority of the people who are against this would not even be a hunter if their dad or grandfather or whoever got them started in hunting through a fit when they wanted to go to the woods with them. AMAZING!

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from adjam5 wrote 2 years 2 days ago

I strongly support NY Bowhunters. What many writers who love to bash NY Bow seem to leave out is the fact that NYB has been pushing for a youth season since 2005 and do many many youth camps to get kids involved in archery. Buts lets not mention that writer. Matter of fact when the opening day of the firearm season in NYS was moved from a Monday to a Saturday. What DEC said was . That was for younger hunters who cannot take off from school and folks who cannot miss work to be able to get out there on opening day. So a VERY important weekend of the rut was lost by bowhunters in NYS. But it was for the kids...right? That was a trojan horse. One does NOT need a special weekend or time of the year to take a youth hunting or fishing. Smoke and mirrors.
As far as the crossbow goes...it belongs in the firearm season. It is point and shoot like a gun. A pre cocked, scoped, shoulder fired weapon that does NOT have to be drawn in the presence of the animal. Regardless of projectile. There are guns that shoot arrows/bolts. Are they archery also? If you have never been busted drawing your bow on a animal...you haven't been hunting enough.
I am glad there is a organization like NY Bowhunters to fight for mine and other hunters rights.

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from CF wrote 2 years 2 days ago

As a father of an aspiring 11 year old hunter, I support youth hunting promotional activities. But I do not support the idea of youth hunters in the woods with slug shotguns or center fire rifles during bow season.
A few small game gun hunters in the woods with .22 rifles or bird shot is completely different than adding new/inexperienced youth hunters with center fire rifles or slug guns during bow season. There would probably be some overlap of young small game hunters, but a youth gun deer hunt would largely introduce incremental noise and activity in the woods on top of small game hunters.
Because bow hunting requires shots of 40 yards or less, bow hunters need to be completely concealed in camo to minimize the chance of spooking deer while drawing. I would not be comfortable bow hunting without orange when inexperienced youth hunters are walking around with deer guns. Bow hunting with orange is pointless. If a mature deer spots you in your stand once, it will NEVER return to that area.
Plus center fire rifles and slug guns are much louder than rim fire and bird shot discharge, and will stink up the woods for adult hunters that may have been putting in countless hours scouting and preparing to hunt a mature buck.
All of this incremental activity just as the rut is beginning will certainly affect deer patterns and increase the chances for accidents and/or conflicts. If forced to make an all or nothing choice, I would rather no youth gun hunt and keep the existing October 15 bow hunting start date. As a reasonable compromise, why not let youths hunt with crossbows during the proposed Columbus Day youth hunt or some weekend in September? Crossbow hunting would require closer shots and the kids would enjoy seeing the increased deer activity up close. Crossbow hunting for new/inexperienced youth hunters would also promote better shot placement since they’ll have only one shot. A win-win for everyone!

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 2 days ago

Josh Giannino:

"once these deer are shot at it they are impossible to find"

1) When you have 500,000 gun hunters hunting the state's deer herd, yeah, that'll cause them to shift their patterns. But we're not talking about 500,000 hunters though, we're talking about maybe 13,000 youth hunters that have Junior Big Game tags. 13,000 youths spread throughout the entire state of NY, most of which will be hunting PRIVATE land is not going have much of an impact on deer movements where YOU specifically hunt.

2) Further, your statement above is a COMPLETE myth. When I lived in PA, I conducted a daytime home range analysis on deer investigating this very theory. In PA they have a muzzle loader hunt and a jr./sr. firearms hunt during the same week that NY wanted to conduct it's youth gun hunt. These gun hunts actually overlap with the PA archery season (because apparently PA bow hunters have enough courtesy to share the woods with other hunters during "their" season). 1.5 yo bucks were the only segment of the deer population that were seemingly affected, and it caused them to INCREASE their daytime home range size. A larger daytime home range size indicates animals were on their feet and moving during shooting hours, which is actually beneficial to archery hunters because most of them stand hunt, requiring deer to walk by. I cross referenced that GPS data with radio telemetry data collected BEFORE the muzzle loader and jr./sr. firearms seasons were added to PAs hunting schedule and found that 1.5yo bucks expanded their home range during that week regardless if there was a gun season or not. During that week, 1.5 yo early fall dispersal occurs, and it will occur regardless if there's a gun season during week 3 or not. So what about bucks 2.5 y/o and older, and does? Neither of these segments of the deer herd changed their home range size during the early muzzle loader/jr./sr. firearms hunt. During week 4, the week AFTER the muzzle loader hunt, 2.5+ yo bucks actually DOUBLED their daytime home range size. This was an indication of the "chasing/seeking" phase of the rut. Again, when cross referenced with telemetry data from years past, the results were consistent. If deer were to go into "hiding," it would mean they were bedded or not moving during daylight hours, correct? Therefore if deer are bedded all day that would mean their daytime home range would have DECREASED and it didn't. Instead, it doubled after the gun hunt? Why? Because a low pressure gun hunt BEFORE the rut does not change how deer move DURING the rut. When it's time to breed, it's time to breed and bucks will be on their feet. 2.5+yo daytime home range size remained doubled throughout most of the month of November. During the final week of Nov/first week of Dec. the firearms season opened and 700,000 PA gun hunters hit the woods. By the end of week 9, whatever deer were remaining in the herd had a very small daytime home range size. This is consistent with what you observe after NY's firearms season. Again, 500,000 gun hunters aren't going to be hitting the woods during the youth hunt, and buck behavior during the rut isn't going to change due to a few youth hunters firing guns BEFORE the rut. Oh I almost forgot about does. They maintained a consistently small daytime home range throughout the entire hunting season.

3) Firearm use is ALREADY legal during the archery season for small game. So it's OK for small game hunters to discharge firearms during archery season, but its not OK to have a youth gun hunt?

"itts not fair to the rest of us"

That's the point...to knowingly give them an advantage to ensure their chances of success are high. Don't be a crybaby! If you can't kill a deer in NY's southern tier given 47 days of archery season, you've got bigger problems to worry about than a youth gun hunt!

"im all for an archery hunt a week before the adult season tho"

Well I'm all for a youth gun hunt BEFORE the regular archery season starts. Give the youth first crack at the deer herd before any adult even enters the woods. How do you feel about that?

P.S. - I have been a bow hunter since 2007...archery season is "my" time too. I'm just willing to share it.

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from huntfishtrap wrote 2 years 2 days ago

If it's not bad enough that we have antis constantly trying to limit/eliminate hunting seasons, now we have HUNTING groups trying to do the same! Why can't everyone be as dedicated about the preservation of the sport we love, as they are on jealously protecting their own little slice of the pie?

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from jcarlin wrote 2 years 2 days ago

I have no problems with youth hunts during archery season. I was suprised by one once though. My mental calendar at the time read 'archery only', because for me it was. I completely failed to note that there was a youth squirrel hunt during one of those weekends. Imagine my suprise when a shotgun went off 50 yards behind me.
Happened to run into the young hunter and his grandfather on my walk out. The gentleman pointed out for his grandson the dangers of my not wearing orange. I agreed and told the kid that it was worse than that. Not only did I fail to wear orange, which I always did during a firearm season even when not required, it was a result of failing to fully read that year's guidelines and realizing that there WAS an open firearms season that weekend. Be safe, but also read the book kids.

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from Josh Giannino wrote 2 years 3 days ago

im strongly with the ny bow hunters,I live in new york, and once these deer are shot at it they are impossible to find, once gun season starts its first week or no deer, it will be like youth turkey weekend, the birds are half spooked by opening dday, itts not fair to the rest of us, im all for an archery hunt a week before the adult season tho,

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 3 days ago

In response to this article I sent the following message to the governor of NY (if you are a NY hunter and support the message below, I highly recommend you do the same):

Governor Cuomo,

Bill# A10583 has language that will prevent a firearms youth hunt during the Columbus Day weekend. NYSDEC recommended this youth hunt to help increase hunter recruitment because NY is one of the most restrictive states in the US when it comes to youth participation in hunting (nwtf.org/images/Youth_Hunting_Report.pdf). Continued yearly declines in license sales reflects NY’s failure to recruit and retain new hunters (dec.ny.gov/permits/26368.html). Hunters are the management tool and half of the funding source that NYSDEC utilizes to manage NY’s wildlife, forests, and waters. As a Governor who is trying to look out for NY’s best interest as a whole, I highly encourage you to VETO this bill.

“Declining hunting recruitment and retention portend a decreasing financial support base for management of all wildlife species for everyone’s benefit” (1)

“Decreasing trends in the number of persons who have a vested interest in the continuation of hunting programs for recreational and cultural reasons indicate erosion of the political support base for hunting.”(1)

1. Enck et al. The Wildlife Society Bulletin, 2000, 28(4): 817-824

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from charlie elk wrote 2 years 3 days ago

Bowhunter groups have changed drastically over the years. At time they were a very inclusive group thankful for all the extra hunting time allotted for them to pursue there sport. Now they have become over protective as if they come first and have priority over everyone else.
later,
charlie

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from Yoda wrote 2 years 3 days ago

Considering that the archery season got two more weeks, I think it is quite reasonable for a youth hunt that is all inclusive firearms/archery for three days is very reasonable. They don't have much to complain about with a longer season. Ultimately it doesn't matter as long as they get a youth hunt, but it is pretty darn selfish to contest it so vehemently when the archery season gained two weeks. The choice I'd give them and I'm sure many others would if it were up to them would be to either give three days on that weekend for a youth hunt and keep your two weeks of archery, or no youth hunt and no two extra weeks. I bet they'd change their tune pretty quick. But I guess politics is playing a bit of a role in this issue isn't it?

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from Yoda wrote 2 years 3 days ago

Considering that the archery season got two more weeks, I think it is quite reasonable for a youth hunt that is all inclusive firearms/archery for three days is very reasonable. They don't have much to complain about with a longer season. Ultimately it doesn't matter as long as they get a youth hunt, but it is pretty darn selfish to contest it so vehemently when the archery season gained two weeks. The choice I'd give them and I'm sure many others would if it were up to them would be to either give three days on that weekend for a youth hunt and keep your two weeks of archery, or no youth hunt and no two extra weeks. I bet they'd change their tune pretty quick. But I guess politics is playing a bit of a role in this issue isn't it?

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from Jmelch78 wrote 2 years 2 days ago

WOW!!! Almost makes me ashamed to be a bowhunter...almost. Thank god this group is just a tiny fraction of the bowhunting community in this country. All I hear is me, me, me from that article. It's disappointing to hear that a group would fight against a weekend dedicated to getting YOUTHS involved in such a strong tradition. And reading the comments about how wearing orange in the woods during archery season and trying to hunt would be pointless???? Spoken like a truely unseasoned archer! And deer being impossible to find after gun shots start popping off? Really? Sounds like it's time for alot of you to step up YOUR game a little bit! We have 2 youth gun seasons through the year and both are during archery season. Quit worrying about yourselves and the couple of days that you think will mess up your entire season and try to understand the importance of having a youth season! I'll bet the majority of the people who are against this would not even be a hunter if their dad or grandfather or whoever got them started in hunting through a fit when they wanted to go to the woods with them. AMAZING!

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 2 days ago

Josh Giannino:

"once these deer are shot at it they are impossible to find"

1) When you have 500,000 gun hunters hunting the state's deer herd, yeah, that'll cause them to shift their patterns. But we're not talking about 500,000 hunters though, we're talking about maybe 13,000 youth hunters that have Junior Big Game tags. 13,000 youths spread throughout the entire state of NY, most of which will be hunting PRIVATE land is not going have much of an impact on deer movements where YOU specifically hunt.

2) Further, your statement above is a COMPLETE myth. When I lived in PA, I conducted a daytime home range analysis on deer investigating this very theory. In PA they have a muzzle loader hunt and a jr./sr. firearms hunt during the same week that NY wanted to conduct it's youth gun hunt. These gun hunts actually overlap with the PA archery season (because apparently PA bow hunters have enough courtesy to share the woods with other hunters during "their" season). 1.5 yo bucks were the only segment of the deer population that were seemingly affected, and it caused them to INCREASE their daytime home range size. A larger daytime home range size indicates animals were on their feet and moving during shooting hours, which is actually beneficial to archery hunters because most of them stand hunt, requiring deer to walk by. I cross referenced that GPS data with radio telemetry data collected BEFORE the muzzle loader and jr./sr. firearms seasons were added to PAs hunting schedule and found that 1.5yo bucks expanded their home range during that week regardless if there was a gun season or not. During that week, 1.5 yo early fall dispersal occurs, and it will occur regardless if there's a gun season during week 3 or not. So what about bucks 2.5 y/o and older, and does? Neither of these segments of the deer herd changed their home range size during the early muzzle loader/jr./sr. firearms hunt. During week 4, the week AFTER the muzzle loader hunt, 2.5+ yo bucks actually DOUBLED their daytime home range size. This was an indication of the "chasing/seeking" phase of the rut. Again, when cross referenced with telemetry data from years past, the results were consistent. If deer were to go into "hiding," it would mean they were bedded or not moving during daylight hours, correct? Therefore if deer are bedded all day that would mean their daytime home range would have DECREASED and it didn't. Instead, it doubled after the gun hunt? Why? Because a low pressure gun hunt BEFORE the rut does not change how deer move DURING the rut. When it's time to breed, it's time to breed and bucks will be on their feet. 2.5+yo daytime home range size remained doubled throughout most of the month of November. During the final week of Nov/first week of Dec. the firearms season opened and 700,000 PA gun hunters hit the woods. By the end of week 9, whatever deer were remaining in the herd had a very small daytime home range size. This is consistent with what you observe after NY's firearms season. Again, 500,000 gun hunters aren't going to be hitting the woods during the youth hunt, and buck behavior during the rut isn't going to change due to a few youth hunters firing guns BEFORE the rut. Oh I almost forgot about does. They maintained a consistently small daytime home range throughout the entire hunting season.

3) Firearm use is ALREADY legal during the archery season for small game. So it's OK for small game hunters to discharge firearms during archery season, but its not OK to have a youth gun hunt?

"itts not fair to the rest of us"

That's the point...to knowingly give them an advantage to ensure their chances of success are high. Don't be a crybaby! If you can't kill a deer in NY's southern tier given 47 days of archery season, you've got bigger problems to worry about than a youth gun hunt!

"im all for an archery hunt a week before the adult season tho"

Well I'm all for a youth gun hunt BEFORE the regular archery season starts. Give the youth first crack at the deer herd before any adult even enters the woods. How do you feel about that?

P.S. - I have been a bow hunter since 2007...archery season is "my" time too. I'm just willing to share it.

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from charlie elk wrote 2 years 3 days ago

Bowhunter groups have changed drastically over the years. At time they were a very inclusive group thankful for all the extra hunting time allotted for them to pursue there sport. Now they have become over protective as if they come first and have priority over everyone else.
later,
charlie

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from huntfishtrap wrote 2 years 2 days ago

If it's not bad enough that we have antis constantly trying to limit/eliminate hunting seasons, now we have HUNTING groups trying to do the same! Why can't everyone be as dedicated about the preservation of the sport we love, as they are on jealously protecting their own little slice of the pie?

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 1 day ago

adjam5:

"Dont tell me NYB is selfish."

On the "future goals" page of their website you will find the following:

"Expand early archery-only seasons;
● Southern zone - October 1st
● Northern zone - September 1st

Annually open the Southern Zone firearms regular season on the Saturday or Monday before Thanksgiving."

I did the math, this would give southern zone archery hunters anywhere from 47-59 days of hunting opportunity each year! All of that during which they will not share "their" season for a youth firearms hunt or early muzzle loader hunt. That time-span also covers every segment of the rut from pre-rut to post-rut. How is that not selfish? You only get to hunt the rut if you're a healthy bow hunter. Since crossbows aren't legal (and NYB is HEAVILY against crossbow use), the young, the elderly, and the disabled cannot participate. I'm a bow hunter and even I think that's selfish! I love bow hunting, but its not worth pizzing off the rest of the deer hunting community.

You will also find the following on the NYB website:

"The following are planned DEC actions that are detrimental to New York’s archery seasons:

-the possibility of conducting a youth firearms weekend hunt during the southern and northern zone archery-only seasons,
-conduct a muzzleloading hunt during the southern zone archery-only season,
-allow for the use of crossbows during All the archery seasons."

"NYB is opposed to conducting any type of firearms season during the bow-only seasons. There is no need to have a special youth weekend firearms big game hunt as there are plenty of opportunities to take a kid hunting over the duration of all the existing seasons. Bowhunters gave up the last weekend of their bow season in the southern zone in 2005 so that kids could participate on the opening day of the regular season. If this youth hunt is truly desired, it should be held on the 1st weekend of the regular firearms season, as has been proposed by the DEC for Suffolk County. However, the DEC is opposed to such an action upstate, as they do not want to upset those of us that gun hunt during the regular season. Obviously the DEC has little concern for the disruption that any firearms season would create during the archery-only seasons."

So why, then, doesn't NYB also lobby for the closing of small game? Small game seasons run concurrently with the archery season and they are allowed to use firearms, but it isn't until deer are the target species that firearms during the bow season becomes an issue despite youth hunters and muzzle loader hunters comprising only a small portion of the hunting populous.

"Of equal concern is the DEC’s proposal to implement a muzzleloading season in the middle of the southern zone archery-only season. The DEC is trying to down play this as a minor issue that should be of little concern to bowhunters. The truth of the matter is that this proposal will potentially affect all of or a portion of 20 (over 40%) of the counties in the southern zone."

What you will NOT find on their website is something to the tune of: "Expand hunting opportunities for youth, the elderly, and the disabled during archery season." Based on their website, things aren't really supporting your argument all that well are they?

Don't get me wrong, I admire some of NYBs past accomplishments in regard to youth, but their most recent actions are not "hunter friendly." I'm not a fan of special interest groups exactly for that reason. They create a divide among hunters and are counter productive to promoting hunting as a whole. That's why I'm not a member of any special interest groups. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what weapon you use to kill an animal. We all share common ground...we are all hunters.

"Obviously, the 3,000 plus members of NYB represent a far greater sampling of the bowhunters of New York than the fraction the DEC used."

NOT when 3,000+ people have a similar opinion. Although the DEC's sample of bow hunters was low, it was random and fair. Your group of 3,000 doesn't necessarily represent the opinions of most bow hunters. If you want a better survey, lobby for DEC to conduct another survey of 5,000 randomly selected bow hunters. Then we'll get a better idea of what the bow hunters of NY really think.

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from Craig Dougherty wrote 1 year 52 weeks ago

Come on guys. I've blogged twice now on the youth hunt and both time gotten grief about not writing about all the good stuff the NY Bowhunters do. The blog is not about NYB it's about the youth hunt. I can't help it that the NYB opposes the hunt. It's a fact. To borrow a phrase from Yogi, "Look it up".
My Editor likes to remind me--"one topic at a time". For now the topic is our kids and the hunt they might not have. I look forward to writing some nice stuff about the NYB some day,(and yes, I'll have plenty to write about) but as long as I'm on the kids hunt, the facts are the facts and they ain't all that pretty.

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 3 days ago

In response to this article I sent the following message to the governor of NY (if you are a NY hunter and support the message below, I highly recommend you do the same):

Governor Cuomo,

Bill# A10583 has language that will prevent a firearms youth hunt during the Columbus Day weekend. NYSDEC recommended this youth hunt to help increase hunter recruitment because NY is one of the most restrictive states in the US when it comes to youth participation in hunting (nwtf.org/images/Youth_Hunting_Report.pdf). Continued yearly declines in license sales reflects NY’s failure to recruit and retain new hunters (dec.ny.gov/permits/26368.html). Hunters are the management tool and half of the funding source that NYSDEC utilizes to manage NY’s wildlife, forests, and waters. As a Governor who is trying to look out for NY’s best interest as a whole, I highly encourage you to VETO this bill.

“Declining hunting recruitment and retention portend a decreasing financial support base for management of all wildlife species for everyone’s benefit” (1)

“Decreasing trends in the number of persons who have a vested interest in the continuation of hunting programs for recreational and cultural reasons indicate erosion of the political support base for hunting.”(1)

1. Enck et al. The Wildlife Society Bulletin, 2000, 28(4): 817-824

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from jcarlin wrote 2 years 2 days ago

I have no problems with youth hunts during archery season. I was suprised by one once though. My mental calendar at the time read 'archery only', because for me it was. I completely failed to note that there was a youth squirrel hunt during one of those weekends. Imagine my suprise when a shotgun went off 50 yards behind me.
Happened to run into the young hunter and his grandfather on my walk out. The gentleman pointed out for his grandson the dangers of my not wearing orange. I agreed and told the kid that it was worse than that. Not only did I fail to wear orange, which I always did during a firearm season even when not required, it was a result of failing to fully read that year's guidelines and realizing that there WAS an open firearms season that weekend. Be safe, but also read the book kids.

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from Robert Webber wrote 2 years 2 days ago

You can thank the new york bowhunters a small group off bowhunters SWEENEY AND MARCELLIMO NEED TO BE VOTED OUT OFF OFFICE !! OH by the way i am a huge bowhunter and i love to bow hunt. I am not a gun hunter. But kids in my world come firs...t. There is NO WAY a couple days for the kids is going to hurt the november rut. Some body has to step up and fight back against NY bowhunters and marcellimo through the social network to get the world out or they will destroy everthink the DEC wants to do I an and landowner and i would give a kid a hunt every year for the rest off my life and hoop he gets the biggest buck on my property !! A TRUE BOWHUNTER

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 2 days ago

Sorry NYB folk, you're not going to get a lot of support here, even among the bow hunters. Hunters throughout the country understand the importance of youth hunting opportunities. Your unwillingness to look past your own self interest is appalling to the rest of the deer hunting community.

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 1 day ago

Here's NYB's official stance on crossbows. According to them it's all a big ploy by crossbow companies to invade archery seasons. They offer the alternative to modify a regular bow to accomplish the same task as a crossbow. So not only would a physically disabled person need to buy a bow, but they would also need to buy all of the equipment necessary to modify that bow to make it shoot just like a crossbow. Seem a little ridiculous to you? It does to me.

"There has been an intense effort to permit individuals with disabilities to use a crossbow during the archery-only season here in NY. Most of the requests are made by crossbow manufacturers and known crossbow supporters. Bowhunters are very skeptical of such actions since they are just an attempt by crossbow promoters to get a foot in the door for enhanced seasons in the future.

Many bowhunters who are physically challenged use modified archery equipment to successfully take big game. These hunters include individuals who are blind, wheelchair bound, those with the use of only one arm, people with very little body mobility and many others. Crossbow promoters are saying that the physically challenged, seniors, youth, and female hunters need the crossbow to participate in the archery only season. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is just another attempt to invade the archery-only seasons under the disguise of helping the “Weak". Women, youth and seniors are currently enjoying all hunting seasons without the use of the crossbow. With let-off’s of 85% or more on modem compound bows a person pulling 35 pounds is only holding 5 pounds at full draw. For those few individuals that can not draw a bow there is the "Handicapped Archers Permit". The permit allows qualified individuals to hunt with a bow equipped with a wide variety of available devices. The NYB Physically Challenged Committee has helped many individuals in this regard and will continue to do so.
The Physically Challenged Committee was formed to assist those Physically Challenged hunters who thought that they would never again be able to bowhunt, to in fact enjoy our sport once again. The NYB Physically Challenged Committee has led the nation in developing innovative accessories and techniques which allows Physically Challenged hunters to legally bowhunt with modified archery equipment. The Physically Challenged Committee has helped numerous hunters from across New York State and the country to get back out into the outdoors to enjoy bowhunting once again. This list of hunters includes paraplegics, quadriplegics, amputees, the blind and the deaf to name just a few. Many other hunters with various illnesses and diseases have also been helped by the committee."

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from CF wrote 2 years 18 hours ago

Wow, this has digressed into quite the us vs. them, political debate. Obviously there are strong opinions on this. There is no way to satisfy everyone. Personally, I don't think new/inexperienced kids gun hunting with single projectile deer guns from the ground (as required by DEC regulations) during camo-ridden bow season is a good idea from a safety standpoint. I also have my opinions about the effects on bow hunting in that point of the season just before the rut, but I am willing to give it a chance. I see the benefits of a youth hunting weekend before chaotic regular gun season. I agree that it is a great way to introduce youths to the sport. I think limiting the youth hunting implements to bow and/or crossbow would have been a better compromise, but I am willing to accept the new regulation and move on. However, I won't let my daughter gun hunt during the youth weekend. She will bow hunt during bow season and gun hunt during gun season, as it should be.

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from akferraro1 wrote 1 year 52 weeks ago

So now we have to fight Disney, PETA, liberal politicans and bowhunters to get kids interested in hunting- wonderful!!!

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from CF wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Bigguy01,
I couldn't agree more that small game is the best way to introduce youths to hunting. My daughter and I will do just that in a few weeks when she turns 12 and gets her birthday present from dad - a lifetime hunting license.

I would support a youth gun hunt in September. I also like your idea of archers wearing orange to/from stand and posting an orange ribbon around your tree during the youth hunt.

Sorry, but I have to disagree your statement, "Youth hunters are already allowed to use rifles during archery season on small game. It wasn't until the quarry switched to deer that archery hunters had a problem with firearms being use during the archery season."

Today's center fire rifles and sabot slugs will carry much further than most reasonable small game loads except varmint, which is a whole different story. Also, youth hunters are not allowed to hunt from tree stands, so they lose the safety net that a downward trajectory provides after a missed shot. Now throw in inexperience, buck fever and the fact that most bow hunters don't wear orange and you have the recipe for conflicts or accidents. Just imagine the liberal backlash when the first accident happens from a youth hunt. Anti-hunting will become a required course in public school curriculum. The net sum is not good for the sport.

I don't see the big taboo about crossbows. If everyone is whining about the spirit of cooperation, why not allow crossbows for the youth hunt, if not for everyone? I think crossbows would be a great way to introduce youths to deer hunting without the intimidation factor and safety concerns of a center fire rifle or shoulder busting slug gun, especially for those with a smaller stature.

Many 12-13 year olds are not quite big enough to draw a lethal compound bow. If crossbows were allowed during bow season as part of New York's Junior Hunter Mentoring Program, they would be able to deer hunt at 12. There's an opportunity to get more kids interested in hunting. Small game warm-up in September followed by deer with crossbow in October...hunters for life.

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from adjam5 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

I am glad to live in America where people can have different opinions. I will continue to support NYB and ALL of their beliefs. I will continue to introduce youth( so far 6 in all) to archery hunting and fishing. I will not sit behind a pc and preach to those who need a opinion. I am quite active in getting youth outdoors and involved. Every hunter ed course given here in my county I am there to help out and be involved. I am proactive.
I will continue to push to keep the crossgun in the firearm season. Where it belongs. Hunting is not about guaranteeing success. No law or regulation in the world can do that. (going off the reservation here) One way I feel NYB's stance on the crossbow is a little too hardcore is. Legitimately hurt archers, seniors, youth and vets should be able to use the crossbow in archery season. But if you are a healthy archer...learn to draw a bow in the prescense of the animal being hunted. A Draw lock permit from DEC is a much easier permit to get. Regardless of what some may say on this board. A modified archers permit is $5 and the draw lock costs about $35-$50.
No one does more for disabled archers and has more youth camps than NY Bowhunters...period.

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

adjam5:

"I am glad to live in America where people can have different opinions. I will continue to support NYB and ALL of their beliefs. I will continue to introduce youth( so far 6 in all) to archery hunting and fishing. I will not sit behind a pc and preach to those who need a opinion. I am quite active in getting youth outdoors and involved. Every hunter ed course given here in my county I am there to help out and be involved. I am proactive."

I commend you for this.

"I will continue to push to keep the crossgun in the firearm season. Where it belongs. Hunting is not about guaranteeing success."

Since when does using a crossBOW guarantee success? It still requires the hunter to get 20-30 yards from his/her intended quarry. Putting a crossbow in somebody's hands doesn't guarantee squat. If it did, we would never have any deer after firearms season, because firearms are not limited by range like a crossbow is! Only a fraction of gun hunters actually fill their tags, so why would you think crossbow hunters would be just as successful, if not more? This doesn't make sense.

"One way I feel NYB's stance on the crossbow is a little too hardcore is. Legitimately hurt archers, seniors, youth and vets should be able to use the crossbow in archery season. But if you are a healthy archer...learn to draw a bow in the prescense of the animal being hunted."

I admire your stance to allow youth, elderly, and disabled to use a crossbow. It's the right thing to do. I don't disagree with your opinion on healthy archers using a bow, but I don't fully agree with it either. I would prefer all healthy archers use a regular bow, but I also understand the necessity to increase hunter participation in the full spectrum of hunting seasons. More hunters in the woods equates to more tags sold, and hopefully that can buy DEC some time to figure out how to keep funds flowing for fish & wildlife. Hunting license sales are declining, and hunters and fisherman almost exclusively fund wildlife management programs. The alternatives are to sell more licenses, or increase license costs.

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

"The reason why a crossbow should NOT be allowed in the archery season is...It is point and shoot like a gun. A scoped, pre cocked shoulder fired weapon... like a gun."

A gun huh? Well it has the range of a bow. Also you can equip a bow with a scope...most hunters don't but it doesn't mean the option isn't available. It might be a "point and shoot" interface, but it still requires the hunter to close the distance to within 20-30 yards of a deer (based on the ability of the animal to jump the string regardless of which weapon is used), and isn't that what bow hunting is all about? Getting close enough to your quarry to get a shot off? I find that most bow hunters who try a crossbow, go back to a normal bow. The challenge of the draw adds that little bit of extra excitement.

" A stroke survivor told me a crossbow was cheating."

I find this is the mentality of many bow hunters...even when given the option, they will still opt to us a vertical bow. However, that decision should not be made for them...they should have the option and choose for themselves. I do admire that lady's ambition and pride.

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from Josh Giannino wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

bioguy- I could see that CF's idea with the crossbow being possibly a good way for the youth hunt to happen, give the kids and advantage, and also allow archery hunters like me, who worry about deer pressure a good middle of the road oppurtunity, as well as i agree with you that disabled and elderly should be allowed crossbows for archery, Plus i wouldnt mind seeing maybe a early or late crossbow season as well

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from adjam5 wrote 2 years 1 day ago

Does NYB represent the opinions of the bowhunters of New York? According the DEC absolutely!! Read on;
For years the DEC as well as many NYB detractors claim that the several thousand members that make up NYB does not adequately represent a cross section or the attitudes of the approximately 200,000 bowhunters in NY.
There are approx 500,000 big game hunters in NY. The goal of the DEC’s Cornell Survey was to supposedly select a cross section of those hunters based on geography and seasons hunted. 5,000 surveys were sent out. Only 2,213 were returned! Of all the respondents, 95% went afield during firearm season. 36% also participated in archery. To qualify to be counted as part of the 36% that were considered the “bowhunters” group, one only had to hunt one day in the previous archery season. This means the DEC accepted, at best, a few hundred opinions of bowhunters, many of whom only bowhunted a few days a year, 95% of whom also hunt with a firearm with which to base their “Deer Plan” on?
Obviously, the 3,000 plus members of NYB represent a far greater sampling of the bowhunters of New York than the fraction the DEC used. The fact is, very few people join the very organizations that fight to support their special interests. Even the NRA only has a few percent of all the gun owners in America.

The Facts:

Below is a summary of NYB's promotion of youth hunting (bow & firearm) opportunities;

1. Aggressive support for bills that would lower the junior big game firearm age to twelve,
2. Twenty years of providing annual free bow hunting youth camps across the state (approx 1600 recipients to date)
3. Archery youth hunts,
4. Youth scholarship program,
5. Youth “Spikes” membership,
6. Annual youth awards program,
7. Donation of hunter education materials,
8. Active participation with donations and instructors for the National Archery in Schools Program. (recognized by DEC as one of the leading donators in NYS)
9. In 2005, bow hunters gave up the last weekend of the archery-only season so that junior firearms hunters come participate in the opening weekend of the regular firearms season.

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from adjam5 wrote 2 years 14 hours ago

Big guy...you have made a few valid points. Your insight is appreciated. You have knocked NYB and you have commended it. I take that as being somewhat fair in your assesment.
You seem smart enough to know that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. That is how it works in Albany. NYB is proactive in their vision and they put their money where their mouth is in helping disabled archers and teaching archery in youth camps(over 1600 served). No other hunting organization in NYS has NYB's track record in donating time and helping others enjoy archery.
The article on this discussion did not take anytime to say how NYB helps promote archery or tout its accomplishments. Hmmm...what is the motivation behind just bashing and not commending? When there are valid items to commend. Shouldn't a reporter tell all sides? Or do they work for the Obama campaign?

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 9 hours ago

CF

"However, I won't let my daughter gun hunt during the youth weekend. She will bow hunt during bow season and gun hunt during gun season, as it should be."

To each their own, but I recommend you take her small game hunting instead. IMO, deer are about the WORST species to start youth out on, and bow hunting for deer is too boring and challenging for youth hunters. If you want to hook a youth hunter on the sport, small is where it's at! They're abundant and the chances of a successful small game hunt are WAY better than the chances of deer bow hunt. However, I believe if you're going to start youth out on deer, you might as well give them the highest chance of success, because being successful in the field is ultimately what gives them the encouragement to keep doing it. Think about it like this...when you want to get a youth hooked on fishing, do you take them muskie fishing? NO! They're too damn hard to catch. You take them after something small, abundant, and easy to catch so they can be successful. Same concept applies for hunting. Sometimes I think hunters forget that deer aren't the only critters in the woods worth hunting.

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 8 hours ago

That said, I WILL commend NYB on many accomplishments they have made to hunting in NY. They have helped introduce youths to archery, have made contributions to NY's hunter education programs, they run youth archery camps, hunts for war veterans, and other programs that promote hunting as a whole.

However, when they disallow a youth firearms hunt because it occurs during "their" season is inexcusable. Disallowing crossbow use during regular archery season for disabled and sr. hunters is also inexcusable. If NYB continued forward promoting the "big picture" of hunting as a whole, I would fully support their cause, but they don't. Their most recent action in Albany was just plain selfish, and black mark on NYs bow hunting community. When NYB acts in such a manner, that's how the rest of NY's hunters see bow hunters, and I don't want to be associated with that kind of anti-hunting behavior. A respectful gesture would have been to push the youth hunt forward BEFORE the archery season, giving youth the first crack at the deer herd. Also, a compromise to allow disabled and Sr. hunters use crossbows during the regular archery season is a perfectly reasonable request. Could you imagine how unselfish and respectable it would have made NYB look? My hats would be off to them if they did that. Instead, I'm condemning them because their actions were incredibly selfish.

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 52 weeks ago

akferraro1 - Don't forget video games, television, smart phones, computers, other sports, clubs, etc. Getting youths in the woods isn't as easy as it was 25-30 years ago. I practically grew up outside...now you hardly even see a kid riding a bicycle, much less toting a fishing pole or BB gun.

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from Josh Giannino wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Bioguy01- wouldnt having kid sout on the first day improve there odds as well? with 500,000 hunters in the woods, the deer are moving and i see just as many or MORE on a givin day during opening week, as i do during natural patterns of archery, and i have had PLENTY of inside 50 yard shots on still relaxed deer, Plus what about the safety aspect of it? NYS Bow hutner are not required to wear blaze orange and choose not tooo, all the youth hunts need is one accident involving a youth hunter and an archery or even FALL TURKEY HUNTER and all of the sudden kids cant firearm hunt till there sixteen. wouldnt that be a bigger killer to the sport then the kids not having an earlier weekend? Then add in the adults who will not have the ethics to say kids only and will go out and blast a buck themselves ( I see it all the time and shake my head with the youth Turkey hunt) There is alot of factors on both sides you need to consider can go wrong,

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from Josh Giannino wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

sorry for the typo's

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Josh Gianinno

"wouldnt having kid sout on the first day improve there odds as well?"

It's the best shot they currently have. The point of the youth hunt is to try to give them a full-on advantage. Give them a chance at the herd when the herd numbers are highest, and there's not as many other gun hunters to compete with for space. Further, adults can devote their full attention to the youth hunter's success.

"Plus what about the safety aspect of it? NYS Bow hutner are not required to wear blaze orange and choose not tooo, all the youth hunts need is one accident involving a youth hunter and an archery or even FALL TURKEY HUNTER and all of the sudden kids cant firearm hunt till there sixteen."

1) There is no requirement in NY for hunters to wear blaze orange. It's highly encouraged, but it's not law.

2) There's no reason why archery hunters and fall turkey hunters could not wear an orange cap while moving, and place an orange band around a tree that is viewable from 360 degrees while sitting. (these are the requirements in PA whenever these seasons overlap with other gun seasons)

3) Youth hunters are already allowed to use rifles during archery season on small game. It wasn't until the quarry switched to deer that archery hunters had a problem with firearms being use during the archery season.

4) Why is it that safety is all of a sudden a concern when 80,000 archery hunters are asked to share the woods with 13,000 youth gun hunters (most of which will be hunting private land, and all of which can participate in small game seasons with firearms), but it's not a concern when the same youth hunters share the woods with about 500,000 other gun hunters? I think there's enough room in NY's woods to conduct a very safe early season youth gun hunt during the archery season, don't you?

5) Several states conduct safe youth firearms deer hunts during the regular archery season...why can't NY be one of them?

"Then add in the adults who will not have the ethics to say kids only and will go out and blast a buck themselves"

And the current regulations stop them from poaching deer how?You're really going to deny 13,000 youths the opportunity to get first crack a the deer herd because you're afraid a few poachers will take advantage of the season? A poacher is a poacher...it doesn't matter what season is open or closed, they're going to harvest illegally harvest game some way or another. As I said before, firearms are already legal during the archery season...the scenario you mentioned above is likely already happening. The most we can do is monitor the problem and report any incidents we come across...just like any other poaching scenario.

"There is alot of factors on both sides you need to consider can go wrong"

It's not a bad thing to consider what can go wrong, but it's also important to keep things in perspective. NYB is notorious for exaggerating and using fear tactics to get their way. When you compare what can go wrong during the archery season and what can go wrong during the regular firearms season, the regular firearms season will win every time. Now compare that with the number of firearms accidents that actually do happen during the regular deer season involving youths, and you'll understand that the "safety concerns" archery hunters have are simply not justified. A little common sense and blaze orange can go a long way.

How about this...if safety is such a concern, then why not move the youth hunt up to the last weekend in September? As a bow hunter, would you be OK with that? And if not, then why not?

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from akferraro1 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

bioguy,

Today we favor organized sports and activities over free time outside. Kids are at practice or playing video games. Weekends are often consumed buy team sports- so it's very important to make the most out of any opportunities to hunt. Sunday hunting bans (in PA) absolutely kill youth hunting because free Saturdays are very rare- at least special youth hunts give us a chance. I'm happy to say I've gotten a number of kids (my own and their friends) into fishing, but hunting is a much harder sell and we need all the help we can get. We are losing this battle and it's not even close.

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from Josh Giannino wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Bioguy01- you are making a very well placed arguemnt, and I can see a late september youth firearm season very viable. Your arguement has a strong base and you pointed out information I did not see or read, I will say Im a 100% on board with the idea as i have my doubts and skepticism of the hunt, but If DEC has the research and facts you've proven, I would have to agree it would be a good Idea.

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from Josh Giannino wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Im not* typos suck

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

akferraro1 - Spot on!

Josh Gianinno - It's important to remember that just because a hunting based organization pushes strongly for one issue or another doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You really need to analyze all of the facts and make that call on your own, and ring the BS bell loudly when something doesn't sound right. There are some issues where NYB will receive my full support, this just wasn't one of them. It made New York bow hunters look selfish and ignorant to the rest of the hunting community, and that's no cool! You know what the worst enemy to hunters is? Some would say anti-hunting organizations like PETA or HSUS, but really, what have they ever done to eliminate hunting opportunities? Nothing really...we're too united and have better facts and science on our side to let them win. No, the worst enemy to hunters is other hunters. I mean look at NYB...it's an organization of hunters thought to promote hunting right? Yet this year they prevented both a youth hunt, and they prevented the ability of disabled and elderly hunters to use crossbows during the regular archery season? Does that sound "pro-hunting" to you? What's worse it their tactics were not based in science and facts, but rather fears and opinion. The facts and science say there's no reason not to allow a youth hunt or cross bows. When political legislation can be swayed by fears, opinion, and strong feelings, hunters lose! Now that's dangerous! I'll take a battle against PETA or HSUS any day, because that's a battle we can, and always will win. In a battle of hunter vs. hunter...there's ultimately going to be a loser, and that loser is going to be a fellow hunter and that's not cool!

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from CF wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Adjam5, if you are such a NYB expert and cheerleader, please provide a fact-based, logical argument why crossbows should not be allowed in archery season? Don't tell us that its all some kind of plot by the crossbow industry. Really...is the crossbow industry going to send lackeys in the woods to hunt for us? Or that the DEC's survey didn't include enough people...how many people would be enough???

NYB doesn't even consider an exception for youth hunters, the physcially disabled and seniors. They have to buy parts to make their compound bows work like crossbows? Really?

For an organization that purports to promote hunting, your policies seem to me to be extremely exclusive.

How many of your members support these policies? How many would be enough??

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from adjam5 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

To CF

The reason why a crossbow should NOT be allowed in the archery season is...It is point and shoot like a gun. A scoped, pre cocked shoulder fired weapon... like a gun. The simple fact that it does NOT have to be drawn in the prescense of the animal disqualifies it. Regardless of projectile. There are guns that shoot arrows/bolts. Are they archery also?
If you never been busted drawing your bow...you havn't been bow hunting enough. Yes the advent of ground blinds help in that endeavor...but you still need to draw, keep your arrow on the rest, choose the right pin(not lay on the crosshairs) and make the shot. There is a reason gun hunters are more sucessful. Point and shoot. Can't do that with a hand drawn bow.
Matter of fact, back in April. A few guys from NY Bow volenteered time at a rehab hospital in down state NY( Helen Hayes Hosptal)at a adaptive sports expo to promote archery and hunting for the disabled. I personally spoke to a woman who was recovering from a stroke. She bow hunted before her stroke, and wanted to get back in the game. I suggested a crossbow...She...not me...said that was cheating. Imagine that? A stroke survivor told me a crossbow was cheating. Wow! It was my suggestion to use a crossbow too!
That made me think. She didnt want the rules changed so she couldbe successful. She wanted to hunt like the rest of us. That was her goal. An amazing woman with great pride.

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

"Today's center fire rifles and sabot slugs will carry much further than most reasonable small game loads except varmint, which is a whole different story. Also, youth hunters are not allowed to hunt from tree stands, so they lose the safety net that a downward trajectory provides after a missed shot. Now throw in inexperience, buck fever and the fact that most bow hunters don't wear orange and you have the recipe for conflicts or accidents. Just imagine the liberal backlash when the first accident happens from a youth hunt. Anti-hunting will become a required course in public school curriculum. The net sum is not good for the sport."

We will need to agree to disagree on this. I feel that this mindset is based solely on fear. Most youth hunters will be hunting on private land where circumstances can be controlled. They will also be monitored by a mentor, and youths are equally as inexperienced and apt to get buck fever and also required to hunt from the ground with the same high-powered calibers you mentioned above during the regular firearms season when there are 500,000 other gun hunters in the woods instead of just a fraction of that in archery hunters, and yet they have proven to be safe so far. Firearms accidents are usually very tragic, but they are also very rare (this is something that we continually point out to anti-hunting groups, but yet it is ignored in this case?), so the "liberal anti-hunting" fear tactic will not work on me.

I do, however, agree with your viewpoint on crossbows. It would be a great opportunity for youths to enjoy the full benefits of the archery season. Good luck hunting this season!

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from CF wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Adjam5, thanks for clearing that up. I give you credit for supporting crossbows for the youth, seniors and disabled or impaired, but you seem to be at odds with NYB in that respect, even though you say that you “will continue to support NYB and ALL of their beliefs.” So which is it?

I won’t bother to respond to your weak arguments about the merits of crossbow vs compound bow. I suspect that there were similar groups of long bow hunters that objected to compound bows at first, sighting technical advantages…

Personally, I wouldn’t have a problem with someone who made a choice to use a crossbow instead of a compound bow in whatever season for whatever reason. You site an example of one woman that decided not to use a crossbow for personal reasons. Great, I give her credit. She made a personal decision, good for her. So does she now set the moral standard by which we all must meet?

I applaud NYB for many of its initiatives to promote the sport, education and youth activities. But, in my opinion NYB cheapened itself with its crossbow rhetoric and lobbying the legislature to kill the youth hunt with legislative trickery (so much for promoting youth hunting). NYB could have demonstrated mature leadership and integrity by compromising and allowing the youth to hunt with crossbows during bow season, and supporting crossbows for seniors and the physically impaired or disabled. Instead, NYB has promoted petty hunter against hunter infighting. Nice job NYB!

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from CF wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

Bigguy01,
"We will need to agree to disagree on this. I feel that this mindset is based solely on fear. "

We'll indeed have to agree to disagree. My argument was based on physics and circumstance, not fear. You can't argue with the physics of flat vs. downward trajectory. I agree there will be more people in the woods during gun season, but the vast majority will be wearing orange or red, and clearly visible. The risk in bow season is that a youth gun hunter and his/her mentor for that matter, sitting in a ground blind may not know that a camo-concealed hunter is lurking nearby. This risk is low, but it is an elevated risk that could be mitigated by allowing youth hunters to use crossbows instead of firearms during bow season, or move the youth hunt to September.

"Firearms accidents are usually very tragic, but they are also very rare (this is something that we continually point out to anti-hunting groups, but yet it is ignored in this case?), so the "liberal anti-hunting" fear tactic will not work on me."

Thanks for pointing out the safety track record. This is something that needs continuous reinforcement at all levels. Statistically, hunting is one of the safest activities. Sorry if you misinterpreted my comment. I hope that you don't consider me a fear mongering liberal...I'm very far from it. I was only siting the inevitable backlash from the anti's if an accident occurs, but let's hope that doesn't happen. Our safety record can be attributed in large part to our outstanding education programs, volunteers and stewards, including yourself and many others who have commented. Thank you Bigguy01 and Adjam5!

I think this is about as far as I'm willing to go on this topic. Sorry if I offended anyone, it was a good spirited debate. Good luck and best wishes to everyone. Be safe and enjoy this hunting season with your friends and family. Please feel free to PM.

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from bioguy01 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

CF - Good luck to you as well!

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from adjam5 wrote 1 year 51 weeks ago

I appreciate everyones opinion here also. For the record...There are some items to many things in many things, I do not agree with totally. It does not mean I do not support the majority of what something stands for. For every opinion on here...How many have gotten youth involved in the outdoors and how many voulenteer their time to help spread the word about the outdooors? I take great pride in getting the youth of NYS in the woods. I raised 3 sons who all have lifetime sportsman/archery licenses(I have lifetime trapping and muzzleloading also). Who all hunt and whom all, have been sucessful. The 6 kids I have taken hunting and taught firearm safety /shooting/archery to are my sons friends and one of them was a girl. There is a group in NYS that want to hunt with a Atlatl...what season should that be in?
I still firmly stand with NYB on 95% of their stance. That is enough for me.
So instead of whining about what other organizations do and stand for... Become proactive yourself. The squeeky wheel gets the grease. The computer has many folks experts. Not.

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from CF wrote 1 year 40 weeks ago

With the youth hunt now behind us thankfully without incident, I think it has been quite well established that the hastily implemented youth gun hunt on opening weekend of bow season was a bad idea. I talked to many property owners, none of which allowed slug gun shooting on their properties during bow season. I also heard some adult mentors that did not want to risk getting kids in the middle of problems and conflicts with bow hunters, particularly on state land. As a result and unfortunately, the participation level was probably much less than expected. The DEC assumed that their surveys represented the voice of the majority of hunters (bow and gun), which turned out to be a failed assumption. Once news started to circulate in the days just before the youth hunt weekend, people really began to wake up and take notice to the absurdity, and resulting controversy quickly ensued. As much as everyone wants to support youth hunting, this poorly planned implementation put a black cloud over what should have been a good thing. Going forward, it would be wise for the DEC to give serious consideration to the compromises that many have suggested: 12-15 YO youth archery hunt (including crossbows) during the weekend before bow season opener, a 14-15 YO youth gun hunt during the third weekend of November and move regular gun season opening day to the traditional third Monday of November.

This approach would address many of the safety and logistical concerns, yet still provide the youth with first crack at harvesting opportunities and hopefully create lasting memories and renewed interest in the sport.

Still looming is the unresolved, NY Bowhunters crafted legislation (A10583) collecting dust on the Governor’s desk that would renew crossbow use regulation in New York, but only during gun season, and would also eliminate future youth hunts. Those in the NY sporting community that do not support NYB’s agenda, should write their elected representatives and public officials, including the governor of New York and the commissioner of the New York State DEC, and demand that this bill be thrown back to the legislature and modified to allow crossbow use during bow season (at least for youths, disabled and elderly), and allow future youth hunts. Now that there is broad awareness of this debate within the NY sporting community, NYB will have to decide if it wants to step out of the shadows and stand behind this compromise approach, which would go a long way toward rebuilding its credibility as an otherwise youth supportive organization.

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from adjam5 wrote 2 years 1 day ago

Wow...you folks believe ANYTHING that is written. I also read somewhere that there is a tooth fairy also. Now you have read it also...Believe it now?
Listen not even the NRA has all of the gun owners in their ranks. But they seem to set policy for gun owners everywhere though huh?
In 2003 the DEC asked for NYB’s support in moving the opening day of regular firearms season from a Monday to a Saturday. On July 18th, 2003, NYB officers met with DEC officials and expressed concern that giving up the last weekend of bow season would not be favorable to members of the bowhunting community. The DEC’s position was that this move would allow more youth to get involved in firearm hunting and they would compensate the bowhunters by extending the bow season to an Oct 1st opener (from the existing at the time Oct 15th).For the sake of the youth of New York, NYB agreed.

In the summer of 2009 after 5 years of extensive attempts to restore lost bowhunting opportunity, NYB was at an impasse with the DEC. It was at this time that NYB and the NYS Muzzloader Association worked out a compromised agreement that addressed the apparent desires of the DEC.
The joint proposal would have;
Opened early (SZ) archery on Oct 1st,
Opened a 5-day, muzzloader season on the Monday prior to the opening of regular firearm season, and
 Allowed for a Youth Firearm Hunt on the weekend prior to the opening of regular firearm season.

Although this caused many NYB members to become disappointed with the organization’s leadership for abandoning NYB’s objective which is preserve bowhunting and prevent superior implements from being used during existing archery seasons. NYB felt that although not perfect, it was better to have firearms at the end of the archery season than at the beginning or middle.
Furthermore it would finally put to rest the false accusations that NYB was selfish. No other hunting organization in this state has ever before or since, offered to give up more than NYB has. Not only for the youth but other hunters as well. Regarding that 2009 joint proposal; The DEC ignored it.

Dont tell me NYB is selfish.

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from bioguy01 wrote 2 years 8 hours ago

adjam5:

When did I commend NYB? I blatantly stated that I thought making disabled hunters purchase a bow, and then purchase all of the accessories to make it pretty much shoot like a crossbow was ridiculous. Apparently you didn't read that first part of my post.

The message I posted from their website regarding crossbows and disabled hunters was intended to display NYB's ignorance. Lol...seeing as you thought I was "commending" them, thanks for proving my point!

NYB thinks they're doing disabled people a favor by helping develop equipment to modify their vertical bows to have more crossbow-like features. Despite what NYB thinks, they're just making disabled people jump through more hoops and spend more money than they need to. Why buy a $300 bow and spend MORE money modifying the heck out of it to make it shoot similar to a crossbow, when they can just make a 1-time $300 purchase of a crossbow?

If the physically challenged want to hunt with a regular bow modified with all of the bells and whistles, that's fine by me...but they should at least have a choice between that and a crossbow.

Further, 35#s is the minimum draw weight in NY...how far is the effective range on a #35 bow? 10...maybe 15 yards...and that's what they expect youths, women, the elderly, and the disabled to bow hunt with? Why can't they use a weapon that can tackle game out to 40 yards like the rest of the healthy and strong built bow hunting community? How is that fair that they are limited to such crappy equipment because of their physique and health? That's hardly a fair opportunity!

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from CF wrote 2 years 2 days ago

As a father of an aspiring 11 year old hunter, I support youth hunting promotional activities. But I do not support the idea of youth hunters in the woods with slug shotguns or center fire rifles during bow season.
A few small game gun hunters in the woods with .22 rifles or bird shot is completely different than adding new/inexperienced youth hunters with center fire rifles or slug guns during bow season. There would probably be some overlap of young small game hunters, but a youth gun deer hunt would largely introduce incremental noise and activity in the woods on top of small game hunters.
Because bow hunting requires shots of 40 yards or less, bow hunters need to be completely concealed in camo to minimize the chance of spooking deer while drawing. I would not be comfortable bow hunting without orange when inexperienced youth hunters are walking around with deer guns. Bow hunting with orange is pointless. If a mature deer spots you in your stand once, it will NEVER return to that area.
Plus center fire rifles and slug guns are much louder than rim fire and bird shot discharge, and will stink up the woods for adult hunters that may have been putting in countless hours scouting and preparing to hunt a mature buck.
All of this incremental activity just as the rut is beginning will certainly affect deer patterns and increase the chances for accidents and/or conflicts. If forced to make an all or nothing choice, I would rather no youth gun hunt and keep the existing October 15 bow hunting start date. As a reasonable compromise, why not let youths hunt with crossbows during the proposed Columbus Day youth hunt or some weekend in September? Crossbow hunting would require closer shots and the kids would enjoy seeing the increased deer activity up close. Crossbow hunting for new/inexperienced youth hunters would also promote better shot placement since they’ll have only one shot. A win-win for everyone!

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from Josh Giannino wrote 2 years 3 days ago

im strongly with the ny bow hunters,I live in new york, and once these deer are shot at it they are impossible to find, once gun season starts its first week or no deer, it will be like youth turkey weekend, the birds are half spooked by opening dday, itts not fair to the rest of us, im all for an archery hunt a week before the adult season tho,

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from adjam5 wrote 2 years 2 days ago

I strongly support NY Bowhunters. What many writers who love to bash NY Bow seem to leave out is the fact that NYB has been pushing for a youth season since 2005 and do many many youth camps to get kids involved in archery. Buts lets not mention that writer. Matter of fact when the opening day of the firearm season in NYS was moved from a Monday to a Saturday. What DEC said was . That was for younger hunters who cannot take off from school and folks who cannot miss work to be able to get out there on opening day. So a VERY important weekend of the rut was lost by bowhunters in NYS. But it was for the kids...right? That was a trojan horse. One does NOT need a special weekend or time of the year to take a youth hunting or fishing. Smoke and mirrors.
As far as the crossbow goes...it belongs in the firearm season. It is point and shoot like a gun. A pre cocked, scoped, shoulder fired weapon that does NOT have to be drawn in the presence of the animal. Regardless of projectile. There are guns that shoot arrows/bolts. Are they archery also? If you have never been busted drawing your bow on a animal...you haven't been hunting enough.
I am glad there is a organization like NY Bowhunters to fight for mine and other hunters rights.

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