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November 23, 2009
'Come And Take It' Banner More Relevant Today Than Ever - 52
by John Haughey
Sometimes, you have to scour the editorial pages in such far-flung places as Louisburg, Kansas, to learn that there's more independent thinking in the Heartland than elsewhere in America. Take, for an example, a letter to the editor written by Jesse Trimble and published in the Louisburg Herald on Nov. 10. "I’ve always been a history buff at heart and more recently an avid gun enthusiast, but most importantly, a supporter of Second Amendment rights. There’s a difference between just shooting guns and knowing the vast history behind our right to do so," Trimble writes. "The United States, as a country and before it was a country, has had a long history of flags — specifically, flags relating to our independence when we were at war with Great Britain. Many may come to mind, such as the 'Don’t Tread on Me' flag, also known as the Gadsden flag, which is yellow and features a rattlesnake coiled up, prepared to strike. Or there is Ben Franklin’s popular 'Join or Die' flag. " ... The flag I’m talking about — recently gaining popularity among conservatives and gun-rights activists — originally was called the 'Come and Take It' flag, or Molon labe, a Greek phrase that means 'come and take them.' Mixing my love of guns and history, it was a magical moment for me finding out about this flag ..." For more, go to:http://www.herald-online.com/200911105778/opinion/columns/little-known-historical-flag-bears-big-message.html For more on the "Come and Take It" flag, go to: -- http://www.comeandtakeit.com/ |
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Comments (52)
i dont agree with every thing the left does or the nra or the right.but shouting come and take it or from my cold dead hands is not going to get us anywhere. it only makes the gun control crowd say thats the reason we need gun control.that stuff is to extreme for our time!
To Hell with the anti-gun crowd. As Captain John Parker said at the Battle of Lexington in Massachussetts in 1775, "if they mean to have a war, let it begin here." I, for one, will NOT compromise my birthright with a bunch of tyrants and despots even if they are fellow citizens. My oath upon entering the Army in 1971 spoke of "enemies, foreign or domestic." Those are my sentiments and I'll be damned if they're going to transform this bastion of Freedom into a Communist nightmare. Sat Cong! Tyranny and despotism deserve, nay demand, disrespect. I'm with Captain Parker.
hey ruck i commend your service to our country i thank you!
Hey Patrick 88 - If we don't fight, we lose. Too many people just want to roll over and give up their rights a little at a time.
i agree we fight but in the right way!
Agreed. Fight by voting the right people in to do the job. Fight by letting our elected officials know what we want.
well said dvikes1!
Kody:
No compromise regarding my birthright as an American. Your attitude of "reasonableness" is what has brought our Republic to the present precarious position. Remember, we are the posterity of which the Founders wrote. It's our turn to be uncompromising with Tyranny. Sorry that you see compromising with the attempts to diminish our Liberty and Freedom as acceptable. "From My Cold, Dead Hands!"
look ruck that banner waving, slogan saying,chest thumping has no place in our time. that attitude is only brining unwanted atention to our cause.we dont need it!
and its not relevant and these writers dont know the history of this country!
Patrick88:
Barry Goldwater said in 1964, "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice." Agree totally with that sentiment and with the Founding Revolutionaries, as well. Accomodation with Tyrants deserves contempt, if you're truly an American and the posterity of which the Founders referred. Sic Semper Tyrannis.
the only thing thats relevant is we want to keep our guns and we dont want more gun control.the rest of your mantra is horse crap!
kody why are you the only one thats on an even keil around here most of these guys are so far right its crazy!
Kody:
If being uncompromising regarding Liberty and Freedom is extreme then I'll stand with Washington, Madison, Jefferson, and Caesar Rodney. Who do you stand with? The cult of reasonableness? Patrick Henry would find your manner curious.
thats what kody is talking about ruck manners which you have none.its not about being abrasive all of the time!
I liked what your comments said kody and I agree. Patrick I truley understand what you mean and respect you for speaking about what you feel and most of what you say is the truth. ruck im also a little extreme in my thinking but arent we all in our own way.
Really? If standing for the Liberty and Freedom given via the Revolution is extreme then I stand convicted and will stand with the Founding Revolutionaries. Remember, they petitioned the Crown endlessly, sent delegations, and attempted to secure their proper rights as Englishmen. The result was contemptuous behavior by the King and his ministers, a swarm of Crown officers eating out their substance (read the Declaration of Independence), and troops being quartered in their homes (read the 3rd Amendment). What you call "abrasive" is someone who sees his fellow countrymen willing to compromise with tyranny. Hell NO. Sic Semper Tyrannis.
look guys we want to keep our guns that is a givin we want to keep our hunting rights thats a givin.the past is relevant to a certain point then we have to look forward to make progress on these rights!
well cody seems ruck has know idea what sic semper tyrannis really means.which is-thus always to tyrants.it does not mean death to tyrants.ruck needs to get rid of his hate!
sorry kody
:) thats funny. I guess thats why people dont comment much anymore its like steping into a whirl wind and geting thrown for a loop.lol I really do enjoy it all its very educational to say the least.
i agree kody thats what i wanted to do when i first come to this site try to stay above the fray but after a little bit i got tired of all the left bashing and started taking up for the left was not very popular but hey some one had to.got to be able to take it as well as dish it out!
your right kody,bo,drop,and ruck are worth paying a listen to you learn alot of interesting stuff!
Kody:
I've been watching the tyranny developing since the mid-'60s. I suggest you read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Federalist Papers. Yes, we have millions in this country who like government control and dependency and these are the enemies of our Liberty and Freedom. Some of you don't seem to understand why this country was created as it was. Suggest you educate yourselves beyond reasonableness. Remember, the tyrants in and out of government know exactly what they're doing. Do you?
Kody:
By the way, Sic Semper Tyrannis is the motto of my Home State of Virginia. You remember Virginia, don't you? The intellectual home of the Revolution. I also suggest you read up on what constitutes tyranny. Never compromise with your potential slavemasters. New Hampshire's motto is "Live Free or Die." Do you find that offensive, as well?
I did read that msg board kody I enjoyed that one also.
Kody, I am curious; why you counsel nice soft speech and compromise. Is that not how you Canadians have lost your gun rights and free speech? And now Canadians appear to just sit by hoping those who took their rights realize the error of their ways and grant you all your rights back.
Where as here in the U.S. thanks to the take no prisoner attitude of freedom loving individuals and organizations like the NRA we are rolling back gun control laws, preventing the passage of additional restrictions, winning court cases, expanding the right to carry both OC and CC.
Later,
charlie
BTW; last Bo posted he was going deer and then pheasant hunting hope he is having good luck.
Kody im sure he didnt mean any insulting i think he was just trying to say there is time for peace and harmony and there is a time for its a good day to die. Isnt that how this country was made by men willing to die for what they belived in marching to a for sure death. Americans have become to soft in there easy living and are to willing to bend over backwards to please the world. We got to remember that most of american familys come from warriors hard nosed killers and we pretend to be peace loving people. We might not survive as a country but we will survive as a people who just wants to be free. But could we handle true freedom now that is the real?.
Im sure you know your words are respected on ol and your voice very important to be herd by young outdoorsman. With that i also think bowing out is not the answer to anything if we all bowed out evreytime we got offended none of us would be here and the only thing that would help is the new power force they call anti hunters.
Im sure you know your words are respected on ol and your voice very important to be herd by young outdoorsman. With that i also think bowing out is not the answer to anything if we all bowed out evreytime we got offended none of us would be here and the only thing that would help is the new power force they call anti hunters.
Kody, my friend take a deep breath you got totally the wrong message from my post. Perhaps I was clumsy choosing my words, for that I will apologize. I fail to see any insult I leveled at Canadian troops? How did I insult?
My - "I am curious;" - means I am not sure of what follows and I want to learn something be informed. Then I moved on to a percieved notion to get your opinion as a Canadian.
You say handguns are restricted - that is the type of thing I was referencing. Can you carry a handgun in public places? If not then your freedom is restricted more than mine and I percieve that a freedom lost. I have read of hate speech panels beening conducted by your government. They investigated a Canadian living in the U.S. - Mark Steyn for writing the book America Alone. This was reported in U.S. media. Is it true? If so is it not an infringement on free speech.
We all need to be very careful how and what we write. Many times it is late at night or we are short on time. Words can have multiple meanings. For example the word (run)has 832 different definitions. Then add in culture differences and yikes misunderstandings can abound.
I didn't get offended when you claimed the banner was not relevent any longer even though it was spoken by one of my all time favorites Charlton Heston. BTW, if you haven's read his book yet "The Courage to Be Free" consider doing so it is excellent.
Please reread my post and tell me where I insulted any troops. If you take the time to read my posts here on OL and over on F&S you will find no stronger supporter of any allied nations troops. Maybe as strong....;-)
Some say my ego is plenty healthy.
Later,
charlie
Kody just read your second post............
You don't like... so you want to take your marbles and go home?
You know you can just give me a -1 I am tough enough to take it and maybe it will make you feel better. ;-))
Ouch! You are really going to be P.O.ed at me when you read my response to your comments on the VW Touareg.
Using your definition -
Seems you attacked my home a bit over there didn't you?
Above you attacked Ruck's home state didn't you?
Sorry I misunderstood you I thought you had indicated in past posts you liked robust debates.
Apparently I was wrong.
Anyway, can we at least agree you have cool dogs? Maybe I will have one soon for turkey hunting and we can then compare dog notes?
Later,
charlie
hey kody dont take your thoughts else where stay and we will take on these guys that wright instead of think.they need to use their manners which most of them have none!
hey charlie kody was not attacking anyone he was try to show ruck that he was leaving out a big number of gun owners and alienate them form the cause.being gun control! kody is the one guy you need on your side his even keel thinking is what hunting and gun enthusiasts need!
kody might not use this but i will just because you have five stars does not mean you grow in mind!
I agree to disagree. the whirl wind of ol! At times like this DJH has been knowin to support medical marijuana sometines.... :)
Thanks for you post Kody I take from it we can disagree without being disagreeable. I like that.
You are right about yourself knowing more about Canada than I which is why my post that started this row was intended to illicit more info from you a Canadian without any intention to offend. Your patriotism is heart warming.
However, your contention you know more about my country than I know about yours is open for debate. You do not "know" me nor do I "know" you so we can not make a judgement on this point. I have many Canadian friends who have come the U.S. to work because of wage & health care limits in Canada. We discuss a lot subjects around the campfires.
At the risk of starting it up all over again I may seriously interested in this comment you made-
"Am I able to make hateful, dishonest or irresponsible statements publicly without some consequence? No"
My question what is the consequence? and for what?
Some years ago my wife & spent extended time in British Columbia while considering moving there. To this day I read various Canadian press and have seen stories of speech investigations. But I will admit my understanding of citizens allowing government any control of what they say is an alien concept to me. Would you be so kind and explain it a little? Or is this a misconception on my part?
Later,
charlie
DJH, your post gave me a hardy laugh thanks.
As you may have noticed I come to OL mainly to talk hunting. Some who know me consider me an activist and I use other forums to discuss issues outside of hunting. Such as print, radio, TV and of course other internet forums. Because of this other activity perhaps I get too short in getting to a point leaving out key background information of my thought.
Not sure who Kody was considering a loud mouth but let us not go there............;-D)) I like him he seems a good bloke.
I have no problem with guns for hunting or collecting or shooting bottles off of fence posts. I have no problem with calm and reasonable people owning guns. I get a little nervous when people who have guns in their possession get riled up and start shouting about causing human deaths in defense of gun ownership.
glad you guys made up thats a good thing we need every ones input in this forum!
Ruck - I think what people are trying to say is this.
We're right there with you. If they want to take our guns, they can "Come and take it" and we'll all be there beside you standing up for that freedom. BUT, at this point, they're not doing that, and the method they are choosing to pursue that effect is by changing the laws, and to do that they need to win people to their side.
So, when you're up in someone's face with your flags and bumper stickers, you push more people away than you bring in to your side. Nobody who's on the fence on this issue is going to see a Come and Take It flag and decide they're on your side about it. More likely to have the opposite effect.
Nobody is saying compromise, just consider the message you're sending, and the effect it has. You want to send a message that gathers people to your (our) point of view. To do that, you have to listen to those who have other viewpoints, consider those, and present intelligent counters to those arguments. If I tell you I'm for gun control, and you tell me to Come and Take It, I'm probably not going to change my views, but be more entrenched.
Kody,
I did notice your defence of Canada and its gun laws, but one question....Why did you choose to not mention that the citizens of Canada voted the liberal majority out and a conservative majority in? This is the reason your guns are not in as much danger as they were. And yes, it was coupled with the cost of registering all of those guns. It was downright laughable at times to watch from across the St. Claire River. But at the same time it is a relief that that policy has gone away. Congratulations on getting sanity back into your government! My brother-in-law is sleeping better just knowing he doesn't have to register his guns and join a club just for the privelage of owning a gun! Yes I have family in and around Windsor, Ont.
NCJB and Patrick88,
Yes, there are two sides in the gun debate. But what you need to learn is our current President combined with his Atty. Gen. Eric Holder are a clear and present danger to our Constitution, especially our Second Amendment. Right now they are trying to re-include gun use in injuries/deaths in health statistics (like was done by the CDC). That has not been done since Bill Clinton's administration. They are also trying to put those of us who join groups like the NRA and are proud of our bumper stickers on a "domestic terrorist" list, which would if allowed set us up for registration and confiscation of our guns.
If there's one thing that gets my hackles up is someone who feels they can speak logically to a gun hater. I know too many of them to believe that. To them the only good gun is in the hands of the government, or melted for scrap. We as a "Free Nation" and the "Home of the Brave" did not get to where we are by playing nice with those who would strive to defeat us. I write my Senators regularly, they reply (if it suits them) and usually say thank you for your opinion, I voted contrary to your desires because I feel (not think, liberals feel, not think) the public is not served that way. This is why we have a ballot box. Hopefully America smartens up and votes those who would deprive us of our rights out of office!
Remsdad,
I'm not really talking about playing nice, here's what my thought process is.
It is in my best interests if my actions further the causes I support. So, if I am for gun ownership, and I am, and against those like Obama, Pelosi and Reid who would destroy everything good about this country, then my actions should serve to protect gun ownership rights and make it harder for those on the other side to push their agendas.
There are those on the other side who are gun haters, and no matter what we do, we're not going to sway them. They're not looking at logic at all. Although they claim to be open minded, their minds are closed. There are far more though in the middle, who are somewhat on the fence, who maybe think there should be more gun control, but not outright prohibition, but aren't really informed, or committed. If we get our panties in a wad, and say what really feels good to say on the issue - like Come and Take It - we don't accomplish anything to push things in the direction we want them to go, it just feels good.
We're not going to get people to vote those who would deprive us of our rights out of office by acting like a bunch of cave men beating our chests and acting tough.
I write my senators and representatives too, and if I get a reply, it's like yours - "thank you for your letter, but I don't really give a flip what you think". We gotta keep doing that stuff, and we got to get better people in office.
They can't have my guns, they can pry them from my cold dead fingers, they can come and TRY to take them - I hear you - I agree 100%, however, you don't need to convince me, I am already 100% on your side. Being in your face about it helps the other side. That's what they want you to do because they can use that against us to influence those on the fence against us. I'm all for NRA stickers and other symbols of support, I just don't think being confrontational about it furthers our cause.
Winston1, I'm not sure what you're saying...
Who is talking about causing human deaths in defense of gun ownership? If Obama and company push things that far, they will be causing human death in an effort to violate the constitution and our freedom, and we will be standing up for our rights in DEFENSE of that constitution. In defense of our freedom.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
They didn't put that in there because Jefferson was a big target shooter, or so that folks could hunt.
NCJB:
My "stridency" is because we have millions in this country who want to strip me of my birthright as an American. When the Kenyan says that he wants a National Police Force that is as well funded as DOD I don't think it's because he's worried about street crime. Being from Virginia, I am very aware of what happened leading up to the Revolution and the lessons that the Founding Revolutionaries left us. The salient point is that people who want the "transformation" of the country are not amenable to compromise unless WE do the compromising. As Patrick Henry said,"I know not what course others may take, but as for me, Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death."
remsdad,ncjb,ruck i agree with your comments we all want the same thing we just have different points of view on gun control.like you said we need the fence setters to come to our side!
far-flung thinking in the Heartland comes from the legislature. They make more anti gun laws than other states I believe, but do not have the statistics. I lived in a state of OR and we had lower crime rates when the citizens carry guns. I now live back in the heartland.
Does the legislature of each state represent the people in the heartland? If so, I think the Heartland may be a bit far flung.
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To Hell with the anti-gun crowd. As Captain John Parker said at the Battle of Lexington in Massachussetts in 1775, "if they mean to have a war, let it begin here." I, for one, will NOT compromise my birthright with a bunch of tyrants and despots even if they are fellow citizens. My oath upon entering the Army in 1971 spoke of "enemies, foreign or domestic." Those are my sentiments and I'll be damned if they're going to transform this bastion of Freedom into a Communist nightmare. Sat Cong! Tyranny and despotism deserve, nay demand, disrespect. I'm with Captain Parker.
If right means conservative that would be me in business, Patrick. My views otherwise are across the spectrum, as are my friends and acquaintances. Thank you for the even keel comment. Over the past thirty years, I have had plenty of practice being the calm in the storm.
I continue to enjoy this forum. I am particularly fascinated by the diverse perspectives presented so I don't mind crazy. It is important to listen to extreme and dissenting views because there is often a kernel of truth to be found. The American Revolution began with such a grain of truth. However, it was the brilliant and articulate leadership of the time that defined the notion. Nevertheless, those founding fathers were considered to be a bunch of lunatics by more Americans that most patriots would have you believe. The Declaration of Independence proved them to be the right kind of crazy.
Ruck - I think what people are trying to say is this.
We're right there with you. If they want to take our guns, they can "Come and take it" and we'll all be there beside you standing up for that freedom. BUT, at this point, they're not doing that, and the method they are choosing to pursue that effect is by changing the laws, and to do that they need to win people to their side.
So, when you're up in someone's face with your flags and bumper stickers, you push more people away than you bring in to your side. Nobody who's on the fence on this issue is going to see a Come and Take It flag and decide they're on your side about it. More likely to have the opposite effect.
Nobody is saying compromise, just consider the message you're sending, and the effect it has. You want to send a message that gathers people to your (our) point of view. To do that, you have to listen to those who have other viewpoints, consider those, and present intelligent counters to those arguments. If I tell you I'm for gun control, and you tell me to Come and Take It, I'm probably not going to change my views, but be more entrenched.
Winston1, I'm not sure what you're saying...
Who is talking about causing human deaths in defense of gun ownership? If Obama and company push things that far, they will be causing human death in an effort to violate the constitution and our freedom, and we will be standing up for our rights in DEFENSE of that constitution. In defense of our freedom.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
They didn't put that in there because Jefferson was a big target shooter, or so that folks could hunt.
Hey Patrick 88 - If we don't fight, we lose. Too many people just want to roll over and give up their rights a little at a time.
Agreed. Fight by voting the right people in to do the job. Fight by letting our elected officials know what we want.
If history is to teach us any lesson it is important to try not to repeat the mistakes of the past. King Leonidas of Sparta who faced an overwelming Persian force who demanded they lay down their weapons. He replied, "Come and get them!" To know their culture is to realize it is the only answer they knew to give. Their stand is perhaps the most famous and courageously fought battle in history. Unfortunately, their successes as a state was short lived. Lacking a leadership with diplomatic, political and commercial skills they soon lost power and influence. The competing city states evolved and progressed leaving Sparta short on answers and failing. Sadly, there military prowess went out to hire to their former enemies the Persians which only hasten their demise.
The point is that strong democracies around the world will not thrive on slogans in a world that asks some very complex questions. No bumper sticker is going to accomplish much in this day and age. What is needed is a dialogue, communication and education can work wonders when it comes to solving problems. Everyone is free to have their own views but to stop listening to the viewpoints of others threatens those fundamental rights which they think they are protecting. Feel free to shout out your views but to stop listening and thinking about the views of others is not only counter-productive, it is destructive.
I see where Patrick88 pulled some negative marks for making some reasonable comments. Perhaps many share Ruckweiler's views on how best to preserve the right to bear arms. I don't agree. I believe such rhetoric works against securing those rights. Such talk puts ammunition into the hands of the anti gun crowd who already works hard to portray hunters and gun owners in just the manner you choose to present yourself. Yep! I am saying that you make yourself part of the problem and not the solution. I have said it before... present yourself to your neighbors, working associates and acquaintances as a reasonable and thoughtful individual of outstanding character who just happens to own a gun. Those are the characters who will preserve the right to bear arms.
Ruckweiller, I appreciate the fact that you read my comments and replied reasonably. We are approaching a problem from different directions but the goal is the same. You may be prepared to be more extreme than me but I intend to keep my guns and insist that my right to do so be respected, no less than you. I was raised to respect the guy who leans on the shovel as much as the executive who pays his wages.( I've done both) It is an attitude that has garnered me a measure of respect and contributed to success in business and in my personal life. I got an education, both academic and as a student of life, with the idea of expanding my horizons. If you learn anything in school or as a student of life, you should be able to talk to and appreciate more people not fewer. Otherwise, your education has failed! I say the guy who is undecided on the issue of guns listens to anyone who is well spoken and reasonable. Like anybody he wants to be listened to and respected- he wants to engage in a dialogue not subjected to a lecture or slogans that he has heard bantered around from both sides of the question. Let a fellow make up his own mind and you have a convert able of influencing his friends and acquaintances.
As to the determined anti hunter, anti gun character I have had little success... I generally start the conversation pretty reasonably but usually end up putting plenty of four letter words into full sentences and accomplishing nothing except getting the adrenaline pumping. I do find the majority of the anti crowd have given little thought to their position. They want to ride the politically correct mainstream which is just plain stupid and lazy. These are the characters that I find looking down their noses at me when the subject of hunting is raised. My grey hair is suppose to afford me some measure of respect even from some self righteous SOB. I expect the same courtesy I extend to be reciprocated or I am fighting mad!
There you have it Ruckweiler, I am busy preaching reasonable and I got mad just thinking about some of the fools I have crossed on this topic!! I can laugh about it regardless. Anyway, you get what I am saying about the undecided or fence sitters? I think it is a valid point.
Kody, I am curious; why you counsel nice soft speech and compromise. Is that not how you Canadians have lost your gun rights and free speech? And now Canadians appear to just sit by hoping those who took their rights realize the error of their ways and grant you all your rights back.
Where as here in the U.S. thanks to the take no prisoner attitude of freedom loving individuals and organizations like the NRA we are rolling back gun control laws, preventing the passage of additional restrictions, winning court cases, expanding the right to carry both OC and CC.
Later,
charlie
Yes, I have cooled down. My reaction was based on the contention that my country does not have freedom of speech. Furthermore you gave me the impression that American had a monopoly on freedom of speech. I am free to speak my mind in Canada and share my thoughts in a written form on any topic I choose to discuss. Am I able to make hateful, dishonest or irresponsible statements publicly without some consequence? No, but the wake up call in that regard could just as likely come from the guy down the street who feels free to object as opposed to some Big Brother. In terms of handgun restrictions most Canadians have no objection to these restrictions as they believe it makes for a safer society. It is an aspect of our culture that does not parallel your own but it is not seen as any burden and is not considered a burning issue. I think that I live in the Greatest Country in the world, so do you! Does that make one us wrong, no it just makes us different! It means most things are right about where we live and it is only right that we should be proud or our home. I choose to take the high road to get to my destination, I have done so with success personally and professionally. I can take all manner of criticism particularly when it is of the constructive nature. I am as free to pursue my life as you Charlie Elk and I dare say I know more about your country than you do of mine.
Read my comments about sic semper and you will see I praised its usage by Virginia focusing on the brave men of that time. My concern was with the cowardly characters committing crimes against good people and sullying the motto by their deeds. It is important that guys who come across like bullies don't allow anyone to confuse them with the latter.
What I object to is the loud mouths from whatever country. To me their manner denies them credibility. Permit me a business analogy regarding this kind of character, it is likely one that some will nod their heads in agreement based on their experience. If I was doing business with them warning flags would be raised immediately. (Flag #1) The big shot with all the answers tells you he has a pile of work but you refuse him credit until he produces some references. He gets angry! (Flag #2), Their brash and aggressive manner usually means they are going to be disorganized and bully their way through jobs, potentially putting your people at risk at the job site. (Flag #3) They get angry when asked the questions that any businessman needs to answer which means you are not going to get paid without taking precautions. (Flag #4) The loudmouths in business are angry most of the time which tells me they are incompetent at what they do, they are too anxious to enjoy the tasks at hand. Unfortunately, that anger tends to overwhelm their personal lives as well. I have been a 'can do' person all my life and in my experience loud and angry are only obstacles to getting things done. In a nut shell I don't trust anyone who is angry most of the time and I don't trust anyone who thinks they are right all the time.
Anyway, tell me about that dog when you get him Charlie Elk and feel free to disagree with me at any time.
Kody,
I did notice your defence of Canada and its gun laws, but one question....Why did you choose to not mention that the citizens of Canada voted the liberal majority out and a conservative majority in? This is the reason your guns are not in as much danger as they were. And yes, it was coupled with the cost of registering all of those guns. It was downright laughable at times to watch from across the St. Claire River. But at the same time it is a relief that that policy has gone away. Congratulations on getting sanity back into your government! My brother-in-law is sleeping better just knowing he doesn't have to register his guns and join a club just for the privelage of owning a gun! Yes I have family in and around Windsor, Ont.
NCJB and Patrick88,
Yes, there are two sides in the gun debate. But what you need to learn is our current President combined with his Atty. Gen. Eric Holder are a clear and present danger to our Constitution, especially our Second Amendment. Right now they are trying to re-include gun use in injuries/deaths in health statistics (like was done by the CDC). That has not been done since Bill Clinton's administration. They are also trying to put those of us who join groups like the NRA and are proud of our bumper stickers on a "domestic terrorist" list, which would if allowed set us up for registration and confiscation of our guns.
If there's one thing that gets my hackles up is someone who feels they can speak logically to a gun hater. I know too many of them to believe that. To them the only good gun is in the hands of the government, or melted for scrap. We as a "Free Nation" and the "Home of the Brave" did not get to where we are by playing nice with those who would strive to defeat us. I write my Senators regularly, they reply (if it suits them) and usually say thank you for your opinion, I voted contrary to your desires because I feel (not think, liberals feel, not think) the public is not served that way. This is why we have a ballot box. Hopefully America smartens up and votes those who would deprive us of our rights out of office!
Kody:
No compromise regarding my birthright as an American. Your attitude of "reasonableness" is what has brought our Republic to the present precarious position. Remember, we are the posterity of which the Founders wrote. It's our turn to be uncompromising with Tyranny. Sorry that you see compromising with the attempts to diminish our Liberty and Freedom as acceptable. "From My Cold, Dead Hands!"
Just did a search on this 'sic simper tyrannis' Ruckweiller keeps quoting. The phrase was recommended by George Mason as a motto for Virginia and more recently was a motto for an Attack sub USS Virginia. On a darker note, it is a phrase attributed to Brutus for his part in the assassination of Julius Caesar, John Wilkes Booth shouted these words after shooting Abraham Lincoln and Timothy McVeigh wore a T shirt with that phrase after the Oklahoma City bombing. So, it is a phrase adopted by brave men at one time and cowards in another time. Men of substance and character wear it well and those devoid of character because they are filled with hate hide behind the words.
Correction... that was Bo who cause that stir with the evolution topic. Which raises the question, where is Bo? I hope he is on a great vacation or enjoying a new Grandchild? To those of you unfamiliar with Bo, he is a major contributor to the forum and one
character worth paying a listen.
Kody:
By the way, Sic Semper Tyrannis is the motto of my Home State of Virginia. You remember Virginia, don't you? The intellectual home of the Revolution. I also suggest you read up on what constitutes tyranny. Never compromise with your potential slavemasters. New Hampshire's motto is "Live Free or Die." Do you find that offensive, as well?
I did read that msg board kody I enjoyed that one also.
charlie Elk, I have lived on both sides of the border and hadn't noticed any fewer rights North of the 48th parallel. A more open society but with no fewer fights! Handguns have been restricted for many years and while the more recent registration system sought to bring tighter control over rifles and shotguns it has failed. People exercises their choice to own those firearms and all but overwhelmed that system. Gun sales are higher than in the past. There is presently at motion that has passed the house to abolish the long arm gun registration.
In terms of Freedom of Speech you sure got that wrong. Canada is acknowledged around the world as a haven for free speech and a society that welcomes diversity and cultures from around the world. We are free to object to Afganistan and free to voice our support as well. You should be paying more respect to an ally in Afganistan who has seen their boys dying like your own. Our guys are proud to serve and believe in the mission in that country. Talk to some of your Seal teams if you want to know the quality of those Canadian troops who has carried the battle there for years until reinforced by American troops recently. You let them know that they are fighting for a lesser brand of freedom than your own. I don't recall making any insulting remarks about America, Charlie Elk, quite the contrary if you look back on my past comments. If you think that any soft spoken Canadian is prepared to listen to you insult our country you are mistaken. Strange way to speak of your friends in an unfriendly world, Charlie Elk.
Kody im sure he didnt mean any insulting i think he was just trying to say there is time for peace and harmony and there is a time for its a good day to die. Isnt that how this country was made by men willing to die for what they belived in marching to a for sure death. Americans have become to soft in there easy living and are to willing to bend over backwards to please the world. We got to remember that most of american familys come from warriors hard nosed killers and we pretend to be peace loving people. We might not survive as a country but we will survive as a people who just wants to be free. But could we handle true freedom now that is the real?.
Im sure you know your words are respected on ol and your voice very important to be herd by young outdoorsman. With that i also think bowing out is not the answer to anything if we all bowed out evreytime we got offended none of us would be here and the only thing that would help is the new power force they call anti hunters.
I agree to disagree. the whirl wind of ol! At times like this DJH has been knowin to support medical marijuana sometines.... :)
DJH, your post gave me a hardy laugh thanks.
As you may have noticed I come to OL mainly to talk hunting. Some who know me consider me an activist and I use other forums to discuss issues outside of hunting. Such as print, radio, TV and of course other internet forums. Because of this other activity perhaps I get too short in getting to a point leaving out key background information of my thought.
Not sure who Kody was considering a loud mouth but let us not go there............;-D)) I like him he seems a good bloke.
NCJB:
My "stridency" is because we have millions in this country who want to strip me of my birthright as an American. When the Kenyan says that he wants a National Police Force that is as well funded as DOD I don't think it's because he's worried about street crime. Being from Virginia, I am very aware of what happened leading up to the Revolution and the lessons that the Founding Revolutionaries left us. The salient point is that people who want the "transformation" of the country are not amenable to compromise unless WE do the compromising. As Patrick Henry said,"I know not what course others may take, but as for me, Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death."
hey ruck i commend your service to our country i thank you!
i agree we fight but in the right way!
To John Haughey,
I say the 'Come and Take It' Banner is LESS relevant today than ever before.
Patrick88:
Barry Goldwater said in 1964, "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice." Agree totally with that sentiment and with the Founding Revolutionaries, as well. Accomodation with Tyrants deserves contempt, if you're truly an American and the posterity of which the Founders referred. Sic Semper Tyrannis.
Kody:
If being uncompromising regarding Liberty and Freedom is extreme then I'll stand with Washington, Madison, Jefferson, and Caesar Rodney. Who do you stand with? The cult of reasonableness? Patrick Henry would find your manner curious.
I liked what your comments said kody and I agree. Patrick I truley understand what you mean and respect you for speaking about what you feel and most of what you say is the truth. ruck im also a little extreme in my thinking but arent we all in our own way.
Really? If standing for the Liberty and Freedom given via the Revolution is extreme then I stand convicted and will stand with the Founding Revolutionaries. Remember, they petitioned the Crown endlessly, sent delegations, and attempted to secure their proper rights as Englishmen. The result was contemptuous behavior by the King and his ministers, a swarm of Crown officers eating out their substance (read the Declaration of Independence), and troops being quartered in their homes (read the 3rd Amendment). What you call "abrasive" is someone who sees his fellow countrymen willing to compromise with tyranny. Hell NO. Sic Semper Tyrannis.
Ruckweiler, you seem to be seeing enemies on all sides. Those who share your love of country but have a different approach to defending their rights don't measure up to your standards. So, as you prepare to go to battle for these rights you commence by alienating your allies. Smart move! If the key to your strategy is to isolate yourself then parade to sure defeat shouting "Give me liberty or death" then I know you to be a huge liability to this or any other cause. The men you revere would have scorn you. Why, because they were not fanatics they were thoughtful, articulate men who valued new ideas and creative solutions. Passionate ideas won the revolution before a musket ball was fired. Pity it is that such great ideas should become modern day dogma for those who bluster and blunder through life never achieving the happiness their forefathers wished for them.
Patrick I am waiting for a response from Ruck. I like to take the high road and assume the best of people. However, if words define a man he needs to understand that his manner characterizes him as the latter and not the former example of those who choose the 'sic simper tyrannis' motto.
BTW; last Bo posted he was going deer and then pheasant hunting hope he is having good luck.
Thank you for your comments dropjhook. Yes, I considered those fighting words. In terms of fighting my Grandfather was one of those Canadian boys in the trenches that lead the Germans to coin the expression 'storm trooper' in WW1. My extended family including my father(RCAF) served in WW 11 and not without losses. Any of my comments were directed to individuals in my country not just yours whose opinions I disagree with. To turn the discussion around and make offensive comments about my home is no more acceptable in this forum then my making such remarks about your home. I that is not the case I will just bow out of this forum and take my thoughts elsewhere.
Im sure you know your words are respected on ol and your voice very important to be herd by young outdoorsman. With that i also think bowing out is not the answer to anything if we all bowed out evreytime we got offended none of us would be here and the only thing that would help is the new power force they call anti hunters.
Kody, my friend take a deep breath you got totally the wrong message from my post. Perhaps I was clumsy choosing my words, for that I will apologize. I fail to see any insult I leveled at Canadian troops? How did I insult?
My - "I am curious;" - means I am not sure of what follows and I want to learn something be informed. Then I moved on to a percieved notion to get your opinion as a Canadian.
You say handguns are restricted - that is the type of thing I was referencing. Can you carry a handgun in public places? If not then your freedom is restricted more than mine and I percieve that a freedom lost. I have read of hate speech panels beening conducted by your government. They investigated a Canadian living in the U.S. - Mark Steyn for writing the book America Alone. This was reported in U.S. media. Is it true? If so is it not an infringement on free speech.
We all need to be very careful how and what we write. Many times it is late at night or we are short on time. Words can have multiple meanings. For example the word (run)has 832 different definitions. Then add in culture differences and yikes misunderstandings can abound.
I didn't get offended when you claimed the banner was not relevent any longer even though it was spoken by one of my all time favorites Charlton Heston. BTW, if you haven's read his book yet "The Courage to Be Free" consider doing so it is excellent.
Please reread my post and tell me where I insulted any troops. If you take the time to read my posts here on OL and over on F&S you will find no stronger supporter of any allied nations troops. Maybe as strong....;-)
Some say my ego is plenty healthy.
Later,
charlie
Kody just read your second post............
You don't like... so you want to take your marbles and go home?
You know you can just give me a -1 I am tough enough to take it and maybe it will make you feel better. ;-))
Ouch! You are really going to be P.O.ed at me when you read my response to your comments on the VW Touareg.
Using your definition -
Seems you attacked my home a bit over there didn't you?
Above you attacked Ruck's home state didn't you?
Sorry I misunderstood you I thought you had indicated in past posts you liked robust debates.
Apparently I was wrong.
Anyway, can we at least agree you have cool dogs? Maybe I will have one soon for turkey hunting and we can then compare dog notes?
Later,
charlie
Thanks for you post Kody I take from it we can disagree without being disagreeable. I like that.
You are right about yourself knowing more about Canada than I which is why my post that started this row was intended to illicit more info from you a Canadian without any intention to offend. Your patriotism is heart warming.
However, your contention you know more about my country than I know about yours is open for debate. You do not "know" me nor do I "know" you so we can not make a judgement on this point. I have many Canadian friends who have come the U.S. to work because of wage & health care limits in Canada. We discuss a lot subjects around the campfires.
At the risk of starting it up all over again I may seriously interested in this comment you made-
"Am I able to make hateful, dishonest or irresponsible statements publicly without some consequence? No"
My question what is the consequence? and for what?
Some years ago my wife & spent extended time in British Columbia while considering moving there. To this day I read various Canadian press and have seen stories of speech investigations. But I will admit my understanding of citizens allowing government any control of what they say is an alien concept to me. Would you be so kind and explain it a little? Or is this a misconception on my part?
Later,
charlie
Remsdad,
I'm not really talking about playing nice, here's what my thought process is.
It is in my best interests if my actions further the causes I support. So, if I am for gun ownership, and I am, and against those like Obama, Pelosi and Reid who would destroy everything good about this country, then my actions should serve to protect gun ownership rights and make it harder for those on the other side to push their agendas.
There are those on the other side who are gun haters, and no matter what we do, we're not going to sway them. They're not looking at logic at all. Although they claim to be open minded, their minds are closed. There are far more though in the middle, who are somewhat on the fence, who maybe think there should be more gun control, but not outright prohibition, but aren't really informed, or committed. If we get our panties in a wad, and say what really feels good to say on the issue - like Come and Take It - we don't accomplish anything to push things in the direction we want them to go, it just feels good.
We're not going to get people to vote those who would deprive us of our rights out of office by acting like a bunch of cave men beating our chests and acting tough.
I write my senators and representatives too, and if I get a reply, it's like yours - "thank you for your letter, but I don't really give a flip what you think". We gotta keep doing that stuff, and we got to get better people in office.
They can't have my guns, they can pry them from my cold dead fingers, they can come and TRY to take them - I hear you - I agree 100%, however, you don't need to convince me, I am already 100% on your side. Being in your face about it helps the other side. That's what they want you to do because they can use that against us to influence those on the fence against us. I'm all for NRA stickers and other symbols of support, I just don't think being confrontational about it furthers our cause.
far-flung thinking in the Heartland comes from the legislature. They make more anti gun laws than other states I believe, but do not have the statistics. I lived in a state of OR and we had lower crime rates when the citizens carry guns. I now live back in the heartland.
Does the legislature of each state represent the people in the heartland? If so, I think the Heartland may be a bit far flung.
well said dvikes1!
Ruckweiller, I appreciate the fact that you read my comments and replied reasonably. We are approaching a problem from different directions but the goal is the same. You may be prepared to be more extreme than me but I intend to keep my guns and insist that my right to do so be respected, no less than you. I was raised to respect the guy who leans on the shovel as much as the executive who pays his wages.( I've done both) It is an attitude that has garnered me a measure of respect and contributed to success in business and in my personal life. I got an education, both academic and as a student of life, with the idea of expanding my horizons. If you learn anything in school or as a student of life, you should be able to talk to and appreciate more people not fewer. Otherwise, your education has failed! I say the guy who is undecided on the issue of guns listens to anyone who is well spoken and reasonable. Like anybody he wants to be listened to and respected- he wants to engage in a dialogue not subjected to a lecture or slogans that he has heard bantered around from both sides of the question. Let a fellow make up his own mind and you have a convert able of influencing his friends and acquaintances.
As to the determined anti hunter, anti gun character I have had little success... I generally start the conversation pretty reasonably but usually end up putting plenty of four letter words into full sentences and accomplishing nothing except getting the adrenaline pumping. I do find the majority of the anti crowd have given little thought to their position. They want to ride the politically correct mainstream which is just plain stupid and lazy. These are the characters that I find looking down their noses at me when the subject of hunting is raised. My grey hair is suppose to afford me some measure of respect even from some self righteous SOB. I expect the same courtesy I extend to be reciprocated or I am fighting mad!
There you have it Ruckweiler, I am busy preaching reasonable and I got mad just thinking about some of the fools I have crossed on this topic!! I can laugh about it regardless. Anyway, you get what I am saying about the undecided or fence sitters? I think it is a valid point.
sorry about the double post ...posting was so slow I thought it wasn't happening!
look guys we want to keep our guns that is a givin we want to keep our hunting rights thats a givin.the past is relevant to a certain point then we have to look forward to make progress on these rights!
well cody seems ruck has know idea what sic semper tyrannis really means.which is-thus always to tyrants.it does not mean death to tyrants.ruck needs to get rid of his hate!
:) thats funny. I guess thats why people dont comment much anymore its like steping into a whirl wind and geting thrown for a loop.lol I really do enjoy it all its very educational to say the least.
So you figure Patrick and I created a whirlwind?? I like that dropjhook but compared to the tornado Big O stirred up with the recent evolution debate it seems pretty minor.
i agree kody thats what i wanted to do when i first come to this site try to stay above the fray but after a little bit i got tired of all the left bashing and started taking up for the left was not very popular but hey some one had to.got to be able to take it as well as dish it out!
your right kody,bo,drop,and ruck are worth paying a listen to you learn alot of interesting stuff!
glad you guys made up thats a good thing we need every ones input in this forum!
remsdad,ncjb,ruck i agree with your comments we all want the same thing we just have different points of view on gun control.like you said we need the fence setters to come to our side!
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kody why are you the only one thats on an even keil around here most of these guys are so far right its crazy!
sorry kody
Kody:
I've been watching the tyranny developing since the mid-'60s. I suggest you read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Federalist Papers. Yes, we have millions in this country who like government control and dependency and these are the enemies of our Liberty and Freedom. Some of you don't seem to understand why this country was created as it was. Suggest you educate yourselves beyond reasonableness. Remember, the tyrants in and out of government know exactly what they're doing. Do you?
hey kody dont take your thoughts else where stay and we will take on these guys that wright instead of think.they need to use their manners which most of them have none!
hey charlie kody was not attacking anyone he was try to show ruck that he was leaving out a big number of gun owners and alienate them form the cause.being gun control! kody is the one guy you need on your side his even keel thinking is what hunting and gun enthusiasts need!
kody might not use this but i will just because you have five stars does not mean you grow in mind!
I have no problem with guns for hunting or collecting or shooting bottles off of fence posts. I have no problem with calm and reasonable people owning guns. I get a little nervous when people who have guns in their possession get riled up and start shouting about causing human deaths in defense of gun ownership.
look ruck that banner waving, slogan saying,chest thumping has no place in our time. that attitude is only brining unwanted atention to our cause.we dont need it!
and its not relevant and these writers dont know the history of this country!
the only thing thats relevant is we want to keep our guns and we dont want more gun control.the rest of your mantra is horse crap!
thats what kody is talking about ruck manners which you have none.its not about being abrasive all of the time!
i dont agree with every thing the left does or the nra or the right.but shouting come and take it or from my cold dead hands is not going to get us anywhere. it only makes the gun control crowd say thats the reason we need gun control.that stuff is to extreme for our time!
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